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Topic: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly  (Read 4694 times)

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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 08:33:15 AM »
Ok let's get rid of all government departments.

Then what?


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 08:39:02 AM »
Ok let's get rid of all government departments.

Then what?

No Taxes! Yea!  ;)
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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 08:52:41 AM »
Ok let's get rid of all government departments.

Then what?

I'm interested in serious answers to this question.  Every week there's a post on here from The Daily Mail in which the government is portrayed as either a) completely incompetent or b) highly efficient at spying on innocent citizens and taking their money.

Aside from the fact that both of those statements cannot be true at the same time, I'd like to know how the readers of the Mail would propose to take care of elderly and disabled people, making sure their needs are met and they are not taken advantage of, without any government intervention at all.  I assume an elderly person who suspected their family was misusing their money could call The Daily Mail for help?


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2009, 05:22:17 PM »
They normally are secret the lay person would not be aware of such measures that may be taken.

And that poses the question of why exactly this particular court does operate in secret.   If justice is being done, why can't people see that it's being done?   To use a line which this government has been trotting out regularly over the last few years, surely if the court is doing nothing wrong it has nothing to hide?  So why the secrecy?

Aside from the fact that both of those statements cannot be true at the same time

Why not?   What's to stop one department being quite effective at spying on citizens and collecting information while another department is totally inept at doing the job it's supposed to do?   

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I'd like to know how the readers of the Mail would propose to take care of elderly and disabled people, making sure their needs are met and they are not taken advantage of, without any government intervention at all. 

What's wrong with the way it works for everything else?  The government should intervene if and when there is a transgression which requires intervention, not turn the whole process of trying to care for one's elderly relatives into an expensive, bureaucratic nightmare for everybody.

The deterrent against robbing a bank is the prospect of spending several years in jail if you get caught.  So what's wrong with having penalties for the deliberate misappropriation of a relative's funds which are severe enough to act as a powerful deterrent?

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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2009, 09:43:52 PM »
What's wrong with the way it works for everything else?  The government should intervene if and when there is a transgression which requires intervention, not turn the whole process of trying to care for one's elderly relatives into an expensive, bureaucratic nightmare for everybody.

The deterrent against robbing a bank is the prospect of spending several years in jail if you get caught.  So what's wrong with having penalties for the deliberate misappropriation of a relative's funds which are severe enough to act as a powerful deterrent?

There's little or no deterrent if the chances of being caught are low even if the penalties for being caught are high. And that's the problem with this sort of crime and why comparisons to robbing a bank are kind of silly. The insidious nature of financial elder abuse is that the abuse often goes completely undiscovered or is discovered too late after assets have disappeared and/or been spent. Typically, I believe it's actually noticed when a bank is robbed.


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2009, 10:32:04 PM »
The insidious nature of financial elder abuse is that the abuse often goes completely undiscovered or is discovered too late after assets have disappeared and/or been spent. Typically, I believe it's actually noticed when a bank is robbed.

But the money could still have completely vanished by the time the perpetrator is caught, so in that respect there's not much difference.  And you haven't explained why you think it's any better for the government to take that person's money from him.

However:

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Justice Secretary Jack Straw has pledged to re-examine the workings of the secretive Court of Protection after a Mail on Sunday investigation exposed huge flaws in the system designed to look after some of Britain’s most vulnerable people.

His promise comes as more scandalous details of how the court governs the financial affairs of vulnerable people are revealed by this newspaper – a week after we exposed widespread concerns.

Mr Straw has ordered High Court judge Sir Mark Potter, president of the Family Division, to examine the court rules ‘to ensure they provide an efficient and effective service’ and said last night: ‘The Mail on Sunday has been right to raise these issues and I commend you for doing so.’

Continues:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224342/The-secret-court-living-hell-Straw-promises-review-Court-Protection-MoS-exposes-shocking-catalogue-flaws.html
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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2009, 10:36:59 PM »
More puerile Daily Mail scaremongering. ::)




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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2009, 10:47:09 PM »
More puerile Daily Mail scaremongering. ::)

So which of the facts quoted do you dispute?

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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 11:16:24 PM »
But the money could still have completely vanished by the time the perpetrator is caught, so in that respect there's not much difference.  And you haven't explained why you think it's any better for the government to take that person's money from him.

In respect to the fees charged:

Quote
According to the Mail on Sunday, the court dealt with about 23,000 cases in each of its first two years, assigning responsibility for assets totalling £3.2 billion. The OPG charged a total of £23 million in fees for overseeing the activities of deputies, said the paper.

So they average out at 0.7% of assets per year. Is that excessive to manage someone's finances?


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2009, 11:23:23 PM »
So which of the facts quoted do you dispute?

When I see a headline like "The secret court of living hell", I think it's a pretty clear signal that the newspaper in question isn't interested in a rational debate, but merely wants to sensationalize an issue in order to sell newspapers.

This comment from the link posted today seems like a much more rational comment on the issue:

Quote
Commenting on the issue, Josine Cohen, who specialises in Court of Protection issues at Russell Jones & Walker Solicitors, said: "The Court of Protection plays a central role in protecting the vulnerable from financial abuse.

"There clearly have been teething problems but Solicitors for the Elderly together with other professional bodies have been sharing their concerns and working to help resolve issues."

But quotes like that don't sell newspapers...
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 11:32:11 PM by Giantaxe »


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2009, 04:03:13 AM »
When I see a headline like "The secret court of living hell", I think it's a pretty clear signal that the newspaper in question isn't interested in a rational debate, but merely wants to sensationalize an issue in order to sell newspapers.

This comment from the link posted today seems like a much more rational comment on the issue:

But quotes like that don't sell newspapers...

but what FACTS do you dispute, not the tone of the newspaper?
We are a nation that has a government -- not the other way around. And this makes us special among the nations of the earth. Our government has no power except that granted to it by the people. It is time to check and reverse the growth of government, which shows signs of having grown beyond the consent of the governed.
Ronald Reagan

�In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.� - Thomas Jefferson


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2009, 05:26:46 AM »
but what FACTS do you dispute, not the tone of the newspaper?

That was Paul's predictable strawman in response to Tremula's post.

My point was that the Daily Mail's is sensationalizing; they don't have to publish incorrect facts for that to be the case. Look no further that the headline:

Quote
"The secret court of living hell"

Standard operating practice for the Daily Mail, as we frequently see from links the likes of Paul post on here.


« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 05:44:24 AM by Giantaxe »


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2009, 07:23:34 AM »
but what FACTS do you dispute, not the tone of the newspaper?

The point is, the Daily Mail could take a story about a cat stuck up a tree and turn it into "Frenzied Attack on Ancient Celtic Flora and Fauna by Chav Family's Fighter Cat". The facts become irrelevant so often in the DM.  Really, if you and Paul want to have serious discussions about important issues, you need to start broadening your reading material, or at least the sources you quote.


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Re: UK: The secret court seizing money & control over elderly
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2009, 07:27:51 AM »
but what FACTS do you dispute, not the tone of the newspaper?

So which of the facts quoted do you dispute?

My point was that the Daily Mail's is sensationalizing; they don't have to publish incorrect facts for that to be the case.

Exactly.  First off, this story could've been reported as an example of the government looking out for the interests of the elderly, but it wasn't.

Secondly, Paul & JW, both of you seem to have taken on this new tactic of asking "What FACTS do you disagree with?" as though the political slant of the article is irrelevant.  If all that matters are FACTS, why do all your stories come from The Daily Mail and WorldNetDaily?  Why aren't you reading The Guardian or Huffington Post?

{x-posted with Shahbanou}


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