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Topic: UK: Surveillance of citizens  (Read 1607 times)

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UK: Surveillance of citizens
« on: October 26, 2009, 03:33:45 AM »
We are a nation that has a government -- not the other way around. And this makes us special among the nations of the earth. Our government has no power except that granted to it by the people. It is time to check and reverse the growth of government, which shows signs of having grown beyond the consent of the governed.
Ronald Reagan

�In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.� - Thomas Jefferson


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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2009, 06:26:47 AM »
I find it astonishing that the NY Times is so short of stories it had to dig up something that was reported here at least 6 months ago!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/7343445.stm



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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 07:48:01 AM »
I find it astonishing that the NY Times is so short of stories it had to dig up something that was reported here at least 6 months ago!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/7343445.stm

The date at the top of the BBC link says that page was last updated in April 2008... making the story 18 months old!


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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 07:53:08 AM »
Even more astonishing!!  :o


Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 09:00:41 AM »
Eh, it's disconcerting, but I can't see how this is even a good example of surveillance abuse in the UK.  You're also not protected from any of what was mentioned in the article in the US.  You probably wouldn't get your phone bill scrutinized for such a minor case in the US, but it's not something that only happens if you're suspected of terrorism (along with a multitude of other privacy invasions).  You can also be photographed in most places outside your home in both countries.

I don't know if the US, the land of the warrant-less wire taps, really has much to feel smug about in protecting its own citizens' privacy. The fact that it was justified by the flimsy excuse of preventing terrorism doesn't matter.  I would much rather be followed by some dude in a car in public where I expect people to see me than to have my private conversations monitored and/or recorded.

I do think it's an issue that needs to be addressed in modern democracies.  I fall fully in the privacy rights camp.  I do think that powers to record people in public should be reigned in, but I don't think people should assume they are invisible to the government, even local council government, when they are in public.


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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 07:21:07 PM »
The particular story might be several months old, but the overall issue is an ongoing one.   

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act was passed with the assurance that it was to be used only in cases of serious crime, such as terrorism.  Instead, we find that it's written in such vague terms that it could cover just about everything down to the most minor offenses (some of which should not even be offenses, but that's another matter).  Then we find quite low-level council officials being authorized to call upon it for investigating such things as -

Checking up on those highly dangerous paper boys:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1092264/New-target-anti-terror-spies-Village-paperboys--having-correct-paperwork.html

Or the now-popular search for people committing the heinous crime of putting their bins out too early:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1082225/March-dustbin-Stasi-Half-councils-use-anti-terror-laws-watch-people-putting-rubbish-wrong-day.html

And councils are certainly obtaining phone records for things which are by no account related to terrorism or "serious crime" by any rational definitions of the terms:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1024162/Phone-spies-Town-halls-using-anti-terror-powers-bug-residents-calls-emails.html

More commentary:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1082246/Analysis-The-law-limits-snoops.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1205439/JAMES-SLACK-The-anti-terror-law-puts-snoopers-sights.html

And despite the fact that councils' powers are supposed to have been curtailed, some seem to be still using them:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201274/Big-Brother-state-wants-spy-powers.html

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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 08:49:41 PM »
Paul, why do all your links lead to the Daily Mail? Have you got shares in it?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 08:56:51 PM by Tremula »


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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 11:12:10 AM »
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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 12:44:36 PM »
Paul, why do all your links lead to the Daily Mail? Have you got shares in it?


Do you have an actual opinion on the topic of the thread?
We are a nation that has a government -- not the other way around. And this makes us special among the nations of the earth. Our government has no power except that granted to it by the people. It is time to check and reverse the growth of government, which shows signs of having grown beyond the consent of the governed.
Ronald Reagan

�In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.� - Thomas Jefferson


Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 07:10:43 PM »
Do you have an actual opinion on the topic of the thread?

Yes. Disturbing stories grab the headlines, but, by and large I think RIPA is a good idea. As long as there is opportunity for legal remedy when councils overstep.



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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 11:50:34 PM »
Yes. Disturbing stories grab the headlines, but, by and large I think RIPA is a good idea. As long as there is opportunity for legal remedy when councils overstep.

Man, that sort of reasonable attitude isn't going to get the job done.  What The Daily Mail needs is for people to panic.  If you want to draw attention to a subject that is bothering you, try setting your own hair on fire and running around the village shouting about the end of British society due to working women/asylum seekers/the EU (take your pick).


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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 01:20:50 PM »
As long as there is opportunity for legal remedy when councils overstep.

Right - It has become obvious that councils are misusing the powers of the RIPA.  So why have those legal remedies not been enforced to prevent them from continuing to do so?
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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2009, 09:41:06 AM »
Man, that sort of reasonable attitude isn't going to get the job done.  What The Daily Mail needs is for people to panic.  If you want to draw attention to a subject that is bothering you, try setting your own hair on fire and running around the village shouting about the end of British society due to working women/asylum seekers/the EU (take your pick).


I've tried that. They just rolled their eyes and said, "typical American".


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Re: UK: Surveillance of citizens
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2009, 09:48:50 AM »
Right - It has become obvious that councils are misusing the powers of the RIPA.  So why have those legal remedies not been enforced to prevent them from continuing to do so?


You'll be pleased the EU is doing something about the UK government's surveillance powers then?

http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=58326.msg827213#new


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