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Topic: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas  (Read 4433 times)

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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2009, 01:31:35 PM »
There's no draft now, but if people didn't join the forces voluntarily, the fighting wouldn't stop, they'd just bring back the draft. So, it's a bit of a red herring to say well they knew what they were getting into, because even if they hadn't volunteered, they might well end up there anyway. 

That is a straw man.  He volunteered.  It is highly unlikely that any one person would be called up in a draft. 

I joined the Air Force around the same time this guy joined.  I knew that it was highly likely based on my job that I would wind up overseas. 

Since he joined in 1988 he has had to re-enlist a few times before agreeing to go the Officer track. 


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2009, 02:39:58 PM »
I wasn't talking just about this guy though. Looking at the bigger picture, whether people enlist or are conscripted, wars are going to happen and the effects on those taking part will be the same whether they are there voluntarily or otherwise. I don't think it's faiir to suggest a Vietnam vet is more worthy of sympathy than an Afghanistan vet simply because they were conscripted. You might as well say those who fought in Vietnam could have been conscientious objectors. 


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2009, 03:01:48 PM »
I wasn't talking just about this guy though. Looking at the bigger picture, whether people enlist or are conscripted, wars are going to happen and the effects on those taking part will be the same whether they are there voluntarily or otherwise. I don't think it's faiir to suggest a Vietnam vet is more worthy of sympathy than an Afghanistan vet simply because they were conscripted. You might as well say those who fought in Vietnam could have been conscientious objectors. 

I regard all vets with sympathy, not just Vietnam vets. (Not that you were insinuating otherwise!) Draft or no draft, as I said, I don't think a lot of young men and women really realise how intense the conflict will be or how they will handle things when they get there. Even if they think they know, they can never anticipate how they will feel once they see innocent children die or their friends dismembered by car bombs. Not trying to be dramatic, but that is the reality of what they are facing, and I don't think anyone can really be prepared for that, but people do their best because someone has to.


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2009, 03:14:47 PM »
I regard all vets with sympathy, not just Vietnam vets. (Not that you were insinuating otherwise!) .

No I definitely wasn't. I was referring to bookgrl's earlier comment.

Draft or no draft, as I said, I don't think a lot of young men and women really realise how intense the conflict will be or how they will handle things when they get there. Even if they think they know, they can never anticipate how they will feel once they see innocent children die or their friends dismembered by car bombs. Not trying to be dramatic, but that is the reality of what they are facing, and I don't think anyone can really be prepared for that, but people do their best because someone has to.

Absolutely agree with you.


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2009, 03:46:17 PM »
I agree with both of you, no one can know until they are out there experiencing what is going on.

However, he re-enlisted at least once.  He has a chance to get out, he chose not to do so.

I don't know what else could have been done except to let him out now and if they did that everyone and their mother's brother would be using the same reasoning the next day. 

There are no easy answers. 


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2009, 03:49:14 PM »
The difference being Vietnam vets were drafted.  There is no draft now and you know that if you join you have a chance of seeing combat.  


There may not be an official draft, but the problem is that many people see no choice but to go into the army as it's their only way of getting through college.
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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2009, 03:56:12 PM »
[quote ]
The difference being Vietnam vets were drafted.  
[/quote]

Some Vietnam vets were drafted.
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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2009, 04:28:31 PM »
Am I missing something here? If Hasan had gone to Iraq or Afghanistan, came back, snapped and did this I could understand his military service being a mitigating factor to his actions, but according to the reports I read he had never been deployed overseas.

How are his actions any different from when any person walks into their workplace or school and starts shooting up?

I know this is harsh but I recognise the need to find out the 'whys' to tragic events such as this, but I’m of the mind that there’s really no answer aside from the fact of what we have here is another loser with a gun.


He is a military psychiatrist who had to relive the mental and physical horrors of his patients daily.
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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2009, 04:34:19 PM »
Am I missing something here? If Hasan had gone to Iraq or Afghanistan, came back, snapped and did this I could understand his military service being a mitigating factor to his actions, but according to the reports I read he had never been deployed overseas.

How are his actions any different from when any person walks into their workplace or school and starts shooting up?

I know this is harsh but I recognise the need to find out the 'whys' to tragic events such as this, but I’m of the mind that there’s really no answer aside from the fact of what we have here is another loser with a gun.

I agree with you, jayvee.  I've read the reports that say the major was harassed because of his religion, which is unfortunate, but if he worked at a bank or an insurance company or UPS or anywhere other than the military, and he shot a bunch of his coworkers, there'd be no effort to justify what he did.  I'm not saying anyone here is trying to justify the guy's actions, just saying that his military service is being factored into what he's done in a way another career choice wouldn't be.

However, he re-enlisted at least once.  He has a chance to get out, he chose not to do so.

I don't know what else could have been done except to let him out now and if they did that everyone and their mother's brother would be using the same reasoning the next day. 

While I certainly have sympathy for the experiences of service men and women who have fought in the past and are fighting now, I'm with bookgrl on this one.  Not everyone makes a lifelong career out of the military, and most of the time you have ample opportunity to leave, and you know when these opportunities are, and you can plan for them.  If you stay in after realizing a military career is not for you, that's your choice, and you have no one to blame but yourself.  I'm sympathetic to anyone who has been forced to stay in the military due to a shortage in their career field, but that's not the case here.

There may not be an official draft, but the problem is that many people see no choice but to go into the army as it's their only way of getting through college.

There are a lot of ways to pay for college that don't involve the military.  If someone buys the military recruiting pitch about money for college without fully thinking about the possibility of going into combat, especially with 2 seven-year-old wars going on, I don't have too much sympathy for them, either.

He is a military psychiatrist who had to relive the mental and physical horrors of his patients daily.

Thus far the evidence I've seen doesn't support the reasoning that he snapped because of the trauma of his job, but rather because of harassment based on his religion.  I realize all the evidence isn't in, and it probably isn't that simple, but so far, based on what's been reported, it doesn't look to me like the argument that job-related trauma led to this is valid.



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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2009, 04:48:16 PM »


There are a lot of ways to pay for college that don't involve the military.  If someone buys the military recruiting pitch about money for college without fully thinking about the possibility of going into combat, especially with 2 seven-year-old wars going on, I don't have too much sympathy for them, either.


Well, unfortunately, for many people it can be seen as the only way out. It's why you end up with a lot of people from the lower social scale in the armed forces. That's not just the case in the US but in the UK here. And at times of recession it becomes more so.
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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2009, 05:20:36 PM »
Well, unfortunately, for many people it can be seen as the only way out. It's why you end up with a lot of people from the lower social scale in the armed forces. That's not just the case in the US but in the UK here. And at times of recession it becomes more so.

I don't understand what college money has to do with anything, TykeMan.  I know many people are recruited with the promise of money for school, and I don't have a problem with either side of that transaction.  I can't imagine someone joining the military to get money for college and then being surprised by having to go into combat.  It's the military; that's what it's about, especially considering we've been in two wars for a long time now.

I understand the argument made earlier about the experience of combat being worse than expected, but that's not what I'm talking about.


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2009, 06:45:36 PM »
He was in for 8 years as an enlisted solider and completed his undergraduate degree.  Which means that he re-enlisted at least once then probably did something like Green to Gold.  He then went to get his doctorate degree through the military. 

He didn't have to do that.  He could have used his GI Bill to go to school after leaving the military, he chose not to. 

One could argue that when he joined at 18 he didn't understand the choice, but after joining again as enlisted, and then choosing to stay in to get his doctorate, one really can't argue he didn't know the ramifications of his choices.

I am not saying I don't have sympathy for anyone who realises that he can't handle it, only that this guy wasn't a babe in the woods. 

As for choosing the military for college, some people do it, but you really have no idea the process it takes to join now.  This is not the 60s when they shoved people on a plane.

I was in processing for a full year before I shipped to boot camp and at any point I could have pulled out until I got on the plane.  You have at least 6-8 months of contemplation, hanging around the office hearing from others about what your life will be.

Yes, I have more sympathy for those people who were forced into it as opposed to those who chose to join.  They had a choice, they made it. 

No one ever *bleep*-footed around the fact that I might be in combat and it is vaguely insulting to suggest that all the people who I went to MEPS with didn't understand what they were getting into.

My 17 year old roommate on my testing day was shipping out to drive Humvees for the Army.  She knew she would be heading for Iraq the second she graduated out of A school.  She was scared and I am sure that things were harder than she imagined, but she never thought for a second that she was just getting money for college.   


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2009, 07:29:00 PM »
There may not be an official draft, but the problem is that many people see no choice but to go into the army as it's their only way of getting through college.
I think this is along my thinking.

The poor who can't get a job therefore go and risk their lives by joining the army. Sad one because some of them have families.


Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2009, 10:48:06 PM »
I think this is along my thinking.

The poor who can't get a job therefore go and risk their lives by joining the army. Sad one because some of them have families.

There are more grants and scholarships than you can imagine for kids whose families are too poor to afford college tuition. Pell Grants are just one example. Joining the military is not the only way they're able to go to college. It is an option but not the only option.

Unfortunately for us, we fall in the middle...make too much to get much help and too little to actually afford the cost of tuition. At least when I was unemployed for 6 months due to a lay-off when my oldest son first went off to university he got loads of grants and financial aid. We paid almost nothing.


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Re: US: 12 killed and 31 wounded in shootings at Fort Hood, Texas
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2009, 09:16:07 AM »
He was in for 8 years as an enlisted solider and completed his undergraduate degree.  Which means that he re-enlisted at least once then probably did something like Green to Gold.  He then went to get his doctorate degree through the military. 

He didn't have to do that.  He could have used his GI Bill to go to school after leaving the military, he chose not to. 

One could argue that when he joined at 18 he didn't understand the choice, but after joining again as enlisted, and then choosing to stay in to get his doctorate, one really can't argue he didn't know the ramifications of his choices.

I am not saying I don't have sympathy for anyone who realises that he can't handle it, only that this guy wasn't a babe in the woods. 

As for choosing the military for college, some people do it, but you really have no idea the process it takes to join now.  This is not the 60s when they shoved people on a plane.

I was in processing for a full year before I shipped to boot camp and at any point I could have pulled out until I got on the plane.  You have at least 6-8 months of contemplation, hanging around the office hearing from others about what your life will be.

Yes, I have more sympathy for those people who were forced into it as opposed to those who chose to join.  They had a choice, they made it. 

No one ever *bleep*-footed around the fact that I might be in combat and it is vaguely insulting to suggest that all the people who I went to MEPS with didn't understand what they were getting into.

My 17 year old roommate on my testing day was shipping out to drive Humvees for the Army.  She knew she would be heading for Iraq the second she graduated out of A school.  She was scared and I am sure that things were harder than she imagined, but she never thought for a second that she was just getting money for college.   

I do agree with what you are saying here. I got side-tracked when Vietnam was mentioned because it's a subject that is close to my heart. It was his choice to stay in the military. I do believe that most people who can't cope with it get out as soon as possible (like my father and many of his comrades). Also, even if he is/was mentally deranged, it never justifies violence. A woman who mutilates her own baby is obviously insane, but people certainly don't sympathise with her, all they care about is the innocent life that was lost. I don't sympathise with this man whatsoever after what he has done, I only feel sadness at the loss of life.


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