How will Scottish Independence affect us?

Hello, I have a question about how Scottish independence will affect my wife and I. I am a British Citizen (English born)  living in Scotland with my wife and of course my wife is a non EU National but has Further Leave to remain in the UK (Spouse Visa). Now in September 2015 she will apply for Indefinite leave to Remain and around September 2016 will be eligible to apply for British Citizenship. If Scotland gets independence in March 2016 would this strip away her right to apply for British Citizenship , in September 2016 when she would have been eligible? OK fair enough if that means she has the option to apply for Scottish Citizenship instead of British citizenship in September 2016 thats fine, but can she??? as I read "Citizens of any country who have spent at least 10 years living in Scotland at any time and have an ongoing connection with Scotland may apply for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen" We have been living in Scotland since July 2013 which would then mean she would have to wait until Julys 2023 to apply for Scottish citizenship? Now to me that seems very unfair that she would have been eligible to apply for British Citizenship in Sept 2016 but with Scotland becoming independent on March 2016 this will strip away her right of applying to become a British Citizen and put her on a 10 year waiting period in order to apply for to become a Scottish Citizen?

Anyhow have any ideas?

Thanks all in advance

I cannot fathom this happening! That would mean the Queen would give up all of her land in Scotland! Is it really looking like this will happen?

There is no way to accurately predict what might happen to migrants if Scotland gains independence. It's all an unknown at this point.

Now in September 2015 she will apply for Indefinite leave to Remain and around September 2016 will be eligible to apply for British Citizenship.

I may be wrong, but if your wife's FLR expires in Sept 2015, that means she would have gotten FLR/Spouse Visa in mid 2013.

With the rule changes that happened in July 2012, anyone who applied after that needs to apply for a second FLR (or their first FLR after a Spouse Visa) and then ILR.

Assuming I've read your post right (so sorry if I've got it wrong) you'll actually need to apply for FLR once your wife's current visa expires in Sept 2015 and then ILR 2.5 years after that. After she's got ILR she'll be able to apply for citizenship as she would have been in the UK well over three years at that point.

If Scotland gains independence, it will set its own immigration policies, which may be very different from the current UK ones. There's really no way to predict what will happen until after the vote.

I cannot fathom this happening! That would mean the Queen would give up all of her land in Scotland! Is it really looking like this will happen?

It doesn't mean anything of the sort.

Scottish independence is about political autonomy.  It would mean separating from the U.K. government.

There are no plans to abolish the monarchy in Scotland.  Scotland would remain part of the commonwealth, and would keep the monarch as head of state.  The only difference might be what, exactly, that role entails under a new, written Scottish constitution.

As far as the actual question of citizenship goes, as others have stated, there's really no definitive answer yet.  It will be up to the independent Scottish government to set those policies.  However, I think the most relevant statements from the White Paper are these:

At the point of independence, this Government proposes an inclusive model of citizenship for people whether or not they define themselves as primarily or exclusively Scottish or wish to become a Scottish passport holder.
...
Migrants on qualifying visas will also have the option of applying
for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen. [pg. 271-2, emphasis mine]

Taking these statements together, I think ILR could reasonably be considered a qualifying visa.

The 10-year policy that OP refers to is specifically mentioned in the context of 'other people' who will qualify for citizenship: children/grandchildren of citizens, people with 'a connection' to Scotland.  In other words (and in light of the statement on inclusiveness), people who might be living abroad, and might not have (or even qualify for) British citizenship, but who still consider themselves Scottish.

In any case, I honestly wouldn't worry.  Standard practice when the rules change mid-stream is to 'grandfather' people under original rules, and I don't see any reason why Scotland would suddenly decide to screw over a whole bunch of people.  But if you are concerned, or want to know more specifically what the proposals might be for handling this situation, I'd recommend getting in touch with a MSP in your area.

I may be wrong, but if your wife's FLR expires in Sept 2015, that means she would have gotten FLR/Spouse Visa in mid 2013.

With the rule changes that happened in July 2012, anyone who applied after that needs to apply for a second FLR (or their first FLR after a Spouse Visa) and then ILR.

Assuming I've read your post right (so sorry if I've got it wrong) you'll actually need to apply for FLR once your wife's current visa expires in Sept 2015 and then ILR 2.5 years after that. After she's got ILR she'll be able to apply for citizenship as she would have been in the UK well over three years at that point.

OK I'm not sure I understand this. My wife is on the OLD rules, pre-July 2012. Her FLR (Spouse visa) expires in Sept 2015, so presuming she gets her ILR in September of 2015, then I thought she could apply for British citizenship 1 year after that, ie Sept 2016?

How is your wife on the old rules if her spousal visa expires in 2015? A spousal visa is only valid for two years, which means she would have applied after 2012. When did she first apply for her visa, which visa was it, and when did she come to the UK? You said in your first post that you moved in July 2013, so how would she be on the old rules?

How is your wife on the old rules if her spousal visa expires in 2015? A spousal visa is only valid for two years, which means she would have applied after 2012. When did she first apply for her visa, which visa was it, and when did she come to the UK? You said in your first post that you moved in July 2013, so how would she be on the old rules?

I guess the only way she could be under the old rules is if she was already living in the UK before July 2012 and applied for FLR(M) before July 9th but got caught in the FLR(M) processing backlog when it was taking several months. However, I thought that almost all of the backlog was cleared by March 2013 so it doesn't make sense that the visa would not expire until September 2015 as an old rules visa would expire in March 2015 after 24 months.

Unless... they were actually issued with a 30-month visa under the new rules because UKBA didn't acknowledge that they got their application in before July 9th... A 30-month visa issued in March 2013 after an 8+ month wait would expire in September 2015. If this is the case, then greypicture's wife may have been incorrectly put on the new rules and will not qualify for ILR until 2017... I don't know if it will be too late to do anything now as it should have been checked and corrected as soon as the visa was issued.

Greypicture, if it is the case that your wife submitted an FLR(M) application in the UK before July 9th 2012 but the visa is valid for 30 months, not 24 months, I would try to contact UKBA ASAP as she has been issued with the wrong visa and is currently under the new rules, not the old rules.

Just a note that FLR(M) is not a spouse visa. A spouse visa is only issued outside the UK and for it to be old rules, it would have to have been issued within 3 months of July 2012 and would expire in January 2015 at the very latest (after 27 months). FLR(M) is only issued inside the UK and would only be valid for 24 months under the old rules.

Hello, I have a question about how Scottish independence will affect my wife and I. I am a British Citizen (English born)  living in Scotland with my wife and of course my wife is a non EU National but has Further Leave to remain in the UK (Spouse Visa). Now in September 2015 she will apply for Indefinite leave to Remain and around September 2016 will be eligible to apply for British Citizenship.

If you were born in England before 1983, or have a claim to UK citizenship through English, Welsh or NI family, then you will keep your UK citizenship for sure. That will mean that your wife will get UK citizenship too (as your spouse on a spouse visa).

If you weren't and don't have claim to UK citizenship though English, Welsh or NI family, then it will depend what Westminster decides. Normally when a country gains independence from the UK, they lose all rights to UK citizenship (unless they can claim through family or birth) and take the citizenship of their new country instead.

That's why the Scots living in the UK or EU are getting upset, as they are not allowed a vote in their countries independence and it might affect their future if they lose UK citizenship. A Scottish lawer who lives in London, is planning legal action so that all Scots have a vote in their own countries future.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/27/uk-scotland-independence-expatriates-idUKBREA0Q1JF20140127

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456309/Rugby-hero-Kenny-Logan-s-legal-bid-for-right-to-vote-in-Scottish-independence-referendum

People who are already UK citizens will not have their citizenship stripped from them any more than UK citizens living in other countries get their citizenship stripped the minute they move abroad. The example of other countries getting their independence is different because those were colonies, whereas Scotland is an integral part of the UK and its citizens are full UK citizens rather than colonial subjects.
People who are on permanent residency in Scotland when independence happens (currently projected to be March 2016 if we vote yes) would qualify for Scottish citizenship. The status of immigrant visas and citizenship applications would no doubt be part of the negotiations, but if you want to guarantee that your wife becomes a British citizen rather than a Scottish citizen, your best bet would be to leave Scotland if there is a yes vote. I would add that the most likely situation that will take place is that Scotland's relationship with the rUK will be like Ireland, i.e. there is completely free movement between the two countries, and Irish citizens are considered to be permanent residents of the UK as soon as they take up residency here, and despite all the scaremongering going on in the campaign, it is extremely unlikely that it would be different for Scotland.

People who are already UK citizens will not have their citizenship stripped from them

From Scotland's Referendum
http://www.scotreferendum.com/questions/can-i-have-both-scottish-and-british-citizenship/

It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish citizenship

People who are already UK citizens will not have their citizenship stripped from them any more than UK citizens living in other countries get their citizenship stripped the minute they move abroad.

Two different things. One is about a country getting independence from the UK and the other is a UK citizen moving to another country and taking citizenship of that country too.

For the latter, the UK allows dual citizenship.

For the former, it will be up to the Westminster, which would no longer have Scottish members, to decide who the citizens of the remaining United Kingdom would be. When a country gets independence, it would be in line with past precedent for British citizenship to be removed from anyone becoming a Scottish citizen at independence, unless that person had claims to UK citizenship by birth, descent or residence.

What would the UK have to gain by allowing Scots to have UK citizenship too? It would have to be a very good offer from Scotland to make it worth the UK's while.

Even if the UK did allow Scots to have UK citizenship at independence, UK citizenship would be lost from Scots over the longterm, as those born in Scotland after independence, would be a British by descent. Within two decades, there would be children born in Scotland without UK citizenship.

 

If the UK chose not to allow dual UK/Scottish citizenship, that would make Scotland the only country that the UK wouldn't allow to have dual citizenship with the UK. Who would gain from that? Nobody has said that Scots born after independence would automatically have UK citizenship, just that people who are ALREADY UK citizens would not be stripped of citizenship the day of independence. The situations you are talking about with past colonies involved the fine distinctions between being a national, a citizen, and a subject; it's not relevant to current British nationality law, and not relevant to full British citizens, which Scots are, versus British subjects, which the former colonies were.

If the UK chose not to allow dual UK/Scottish citizenship, that would make Scotland the only country that the UK wouldn't allow to have dual citizenship with the UK.

That's not what they are saying. You are confusing dual citizenship with keeping UK citizenship after independence from the UK. As I explained above, some Scots would be dual UK/Scot, as they will qualify for a UK passport in their own right, just as as citizens of all countries can do i.e by descent, residence. The UK does not stop dual citizenship.

But the precedent for all the countries that become independent of the UK, is for the citizens of that new independent country to lose UK citizenship and to take up citizenship of their own new country instead. That is what being independant means after all, forming your own new country, with your own passports; your own currency and not being part of the UK.

Who would gain from that? Nobody has said that Scots born after independence would automatically have UK citizenship, just that people who are ALREADY UK citizens would not be stripped of citizenship the day of independence.

That is not what your scot refendum states, as I linked above. They clearly tell you that "It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish citizenship".
Badly worded by them, as of course there will be some Scots who can be dual UK/Scot if they qualify in their own right, descent, etc, but what Scot Referendum means is that the rest of the UK will decide whether to let the Scots keep UK citizenship when they decide to leave the UK. Precedent has always been not to let independent countries citizens keep their British citizenship, when they leave. Why would you expect to keep citizenship of the UK if you have voted to leave the UK?

The situations you are talking about with past colonies involved the fine distinctions between being a national, a citizen, and a subject; it's not relevant to current British nationality law, and not relevant to full British citizens, which Scots are, versus British subjects, which the former colonies were.

Scots became British when they asked to join the union. If they leave the union, they will then cease to be British, unless they qualify in their own right for UK citizenship.

As I said above, even if Scotland does offer the UK a good deal so that the UK does decide to break with precedent and let Scots keep UK citizenship at independence, UK citizenship will start to end for Scots within 20 years. Their children born outside the UK will be British by descent and their children born outside the UK, will not have UK citizenship.

By your logic, how would it be decided who was the type of UK citizen who got to stay a citizen and who didn't? It doesn't make the least bit of sense. You are continuing to refuse to see the difference between modern British citizenship and the types of nationality that the colonies were under. All Scottish UK citizens are full UK citizens, and it will only be the second generation who would not be eligible for UK citizenship because they won't qualify by birth or descent.
Also, Scotland did not ask to join the union; the crowns were unified by a Scottish king, and the parliaments were unified by a mutual treaty under pressure and bribery from Westminster. There were riots all over Scotland when the Act of Union was announced. It was certainly not a case of the people going begging to join England.