Please help save our Family!

What is this country becoming?

It's returning the British National Helath Service to the National Health Service instead of the International Health Service it has become.

Even on list forums such as this one, I have seen posters tell others to "go to A&E" if they didn't bother to get health insurance when they came for a visit because  they "won't have to pay in A&E". Free treatment in A&E was a nice idea, but as usual, it's the abusers who get something stopped.

A&E is only for medical emergecies or something life threatening. We go to our GP for anything else. All the abuse has meant the A&Es are overflowing and unable to cope with people who shouldn't be there as their condition isn't life threatening, but they don't want to pay. It's anticipated that the numbers will drop when people find out that they will have to pay for their treatment and the full price of any medication (not NHS rates). Those people needing non urgent treatment will then either wait for treatment until they go home or under the new rules in 2015, they can find a GP or drop in centre, who will give them a free consultation and bill them at non-NHS rates for all their medication.

A human being is a human being...  

Exactly and there will always be bad apples that abuse something. In this case, a national health service that was generous for visitors/overstayers ect who needed urgent treatment for a medical emergency or something life threatening.  I'm sure the decent human beings always bought health insurance for their visit anyway, so these changes won't affect them.

Those citizens from countries who have a reciprocal agreement with the UK, will still get the same treatment for free that their country has provided for them in that agreement.

Those who are in serious need of treatment i.e; a heart attack, will not be refused treatment, but it seems they might be getting billed now if they don't come a country with a reciprocal health agreement. As they will have bought health insurance, they will be able to claim on that. Even under the present system, they would be billed if they needed an operation or a stay on a ward.

Even EU citizens and their families have to use their countries EHIC card to pay for their treatment if they use the UK's NHS when the EU citizen isn't in work in the UK. Now non-EUs will be paying too in A&E. You can thank the abusers for that and those who told others how to abuse the UK's health service.

I think one major problem the NHS has is the lack of training regarding who can use the NHS and billing for services.  We have seen lots of posts here from people who were visitors who held private insurance be told that their treatment was free and not receive a bill even when asked.

Sirius, what is your thought on requiring a co-pay for GP visits?  I see pros and cons.  I mostly hate that technically a co-pay (even a small amount of £5) could be seen as discriminatory.  I do love that the NHS puts everyone, regardless of ability to pay, on a even playing field.  However, a small co-pay could relieve GP's of people calling for every little thing.

Sirius, what is your thought on requiring a co-pay for GP visits?  I see pros and cons.  I mostly hate that technically a co-pay (even a small amount of £5) could be seen as discriminatory.  I do love that the NHS puts everyone, regardless of ability to pay, on a even playing field.  However, a small co-pay could relieve GP's of people calling for every little thing.

I don't like the idea. That said, many EU countries charge. Under the new law, it is clear that the Conservative party do not want GPs to bill anyone for consultations with a GP, as they want people to seek help and not be worried about paying to see a GP. That includes visitors and illegals/overstayers, to protect the UK. But visitor illegals/overstayers, will still continue to have to pay for any treatment and medication, to protect the taxpayers. From this law they brought in that starts in 2015 for the NHS part, they also want birth pills ect, STIs treatment and compulsary psychriatic treatment ordered by a court, to be free also, to protect the UK.    

Labour talked about bringing in a £35 (or was it £30) each visit, when they were last in government. Their view was that those who used the GPs the most, should pay the most. There was quite a long thread on that on digitalspy as I recall.


We don't get to choose what laws are passed, parliament votes. That said, I will be a lot happier when Scottish MPs are banned from voting on England and Wales related matters, just as English and Welsh MPs are already banned from voting in Scottish related matters. Known as The West Lothian Question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question
We don't want another fiasco where Labour stopped their Scottish MPs going home early one Friday, to force though a vote to make the English and Welsh students pay for university education. Without those Scottish MP votes, Labour would have lost the vote to take away free university education from the English and Welsh. Scottish MPs only, could vote on whether the Scots could have free university education and they voted that they could (even though they voted that the English and Welsh students couldn't). I think we know what Labour have planned for charges to visit GPs in England and Wales.


Unfortunately, Labour have made it very clear that they don't intend to stop using their Scottish MPs to vote on English and Welsh only matters, if they form the next government, so I don't think that bodes well for NHS England and any other matters that would benefit England and Wales. I could see them forcing a GP charge in England and Wales and letting Scotland have free GPs, as they have already done with university fees.

While the Conseratives have made it clear that they want all 4 countries (England, N.I. Scotland and Wales) to all have the same powers. That would mean that only elected MPs from those countries can vote on matters that concern their own country. And they want GP consultations to be free for all, including visitors, overstayers/illegals. At the moment, GPs can chose to be free or bill.

Now we know each parties policies, all we can do is use our vote.

I think one major problem the NHS has is the lack of training regarding who can use the NHS and billing for services.  We have seen lots of posts here from people who were visitors who held private insurance be told that their treatment was free and not receive a bill even when asked.

That's been addressed under the new law that starts in 2015 for the NHS England and the new computer systems that have been set up and trialled over the last 2 or 3 years. We might need to start proving we are allowed to use the NHS for free, but that's good news as it shows the system is working.

They can now also do as other EEA countries can do and can check which EEA citizens and their dependants can use the NHS for free and those that have to pay.

The new RTI system for HMRC was set up in 2013 ready for this new NHS checking (as well as catching out some non-EUs trying to claim ILR and any welfare fraud).

They even have a new system to be able to bill all the other EU countries for their citizens NHS use, to return all that money back to the NHS.

It's taken a long time to set it all up, but there was no point in keep throwing money at our health system, until they had the means to stop the abuse.

Labour talked about bringing in a £35 (or was it £30) each visit, when they were last in government. Their view was that those who used the GPs the most, should pay the most. There was quite a long thread on that on digitalspy as I recall.


We don't want another fiasco where Labour stopped their Scottish MPs going home early one Friday, to force though a vote to make the English and Welsh students pay for university education.

This is an unbelievable stretch here. Labour loosely bandied about talk of a GP charge...as has every Government since Eden. They didn't do it.

And while it was a Labour Government who passed the university "top up fees", there is absolutely no comparison to what your people have done with full-on £9K fees now the norm and a great deal of Tory talk that this figure will rise.

The NHS is underfunded. People live longer now. And most importantly the John Major developed public–private partnership (PPP) system has sucked it dry. Stealth privatisation is what they are after.

And I will tell you what's needed. And it's not a £10 pound fee to put sick people off seeking the help they need.

First we must recognise the value of a healthy population. It's not just something like sewing up a cut or fixing a broken ankle but an integral requirement for a successful society. And this includes mental health, which has been marginalised by every Government.

We need a holistic approach including exercise and nutritional support. It is much cheaper to attack these things on the front end than to wait and try to plaster over things later on.

Above all we need to invest much much more in medical research on cancer, dementia and genetic testing.

And why the h*ll don't they put a 24 hour walk in clinic next to every A&E? Why continue to fight something that you will never be able to defeat? It is what the public is demanding.

This is an unbelievable stretch here. Labour loosely bandied about talk of a GP charge...as has every Government since Eden. They didn't do it.

Only because they got voted out. The talked about medicals for those who wanted sick benefits and brought those in in 2008. They talked about a one benefit payment and trialled it, but got voted out before that came into force. When the next goverment took up their idea, they voted it through and called it Universal Credit.

And while it was a Labour Government who passed the university "top up fees", there is absolutely no comparison to what your people have done with full-on £9K fees now the norm and a great deal of Tory talk that this figure will rise.

It was not "top up fees". It was a vote on education reforms which proposed the ending of free university education for the English and the Welsh. Without Labour making their Scottish MPs stay that Friday to vote, instead of travelling home early as they always did, there would be no university fees in England and Wales because the vote wouldn't have made it thorugh without Labour using their Scottish MPs votes.

I apprecaite you were living in your own country then and therefore can't remember and you obvoiusly haven't read up on it, but it was a big event here in the UK and caused a massive backash against Labour because that mainly hit their own voters in England and Wales. Most of my family refused to ever vote Labour again after that, desite coming from Labour voting families and that included out elderly who has been lifetime Labour voters. Even our Labour MP family member, jumped. I doubt we were the only family that took thousand of votes away from Labour in England, over their education reform law that ended the free unversity education.

Blair ending free university education for the English and Welsh is one of the main things he is hated for, despite him kidding himself it is just because of the illegal war he dragged the UK into. He said that if he got voted into power, his three main priorities would be Education, Education, Education. Voters didn't realise that meant that he intended to end free university education for the English and Welsh. In the Square Mile (London business area) him and his cronies got nicknamed the Scottish Maffia.  Back to Blair again.

Now this Labour leader talks about the NHS and we have have seen what he is doing to the Welsh NHS, and why so many Welsh have had to resort to moving to England to use NHS England. He will use the Scottish votes on NHS England and then what? Do you realy want NHS England in the same state he has made NHS Wales? I lived in Walesfor a few years and had my first child there. It was an good NHS before.

The NHS is underfunded.

Underfunded or over subscribed? I can't see how we can dodge for much longer, what countries such as France and Germany have, where everyone buys an insurance top up. Tens of thousands a year population growth, services could cope with. The hundreds of thousands a year that suddently started, they can't.

We can't seem to get away from Blair on this thread, but another one of ideas he is hated for because it caused that massive strain on services, schools ect, with his open door immigration idea to import more Labour voters. It's that caused the sudden massive rise in numbers to thousands every year because it had never been so easy to get into the UK, not only for the young, but for the middle aged and old too. Then when the immigration doors had to shut, it was always going to have to have to be harder that it was in the 90s to get into the UK.

This New Labour still isn't the party the real Labour were, who acted for the people. It's no wonder that some of the real Labour MPs, have been advising this present government.

I don't want England NHS to end up in the state Labour has driven Wales NHS too. What are your views on the problems with NHS Wales?

What are your problems with the Welsh NHS? I live in Wales and I have had a thoroughly positive experience with the NHS here.  Honestly I'd rather wait a bit longer than the English for my specialist referrals than have to pay for prescriptions.

Just wondering what specifically is wrong with the NHS here in your view as my experience has been the opposite.

And why the h*ll don't they put a 24 hour walk in clinic next to every A&E? Why continue to fight something that you will never be able to defeat? It is what the public is demanding.

Do you realise that:

We have walk in surgeries are often easier to get to than A&E hospitals and their car parks are free.

We also have hospitals that don't have an A&E but do have a minor injuries clinic that people can go to if they don't have a life threatening need.

We also have GP surgeries.

We also have family planning clinics for those wanting birth control and treatment of STIs.

We also have A&Es which are for life threatening situations and emergencies. Not a place to got to because you didn't bother to buy insurance and don't want to pay.
It's anticipated that many of the A&E numbers will fall when they realise it isn't free anymore and they can use one of the many other places we have, for a free consultation but they will pay the full price for their medication.

Honestly I'd rather wait a bit longer than the English for my specialist referrals than have to pay for prescriptions.

I loved living in Wales. I had my first child there and had wonderful staff with only 3 babies on the ward. Friends there tell me NHS has really changed and not for the better. The press has been full of the problems the welsh are suffering with their NHS now and investigations to the cause have been run.

Unfortunately, people with serious conditions, such as needing heart surgery, can't wait. Or they need cancer drugs that NHS Wales won't provide. They are moving to England so they can use NHS England, or dying.

Wales has the worst UK waiting times record for life-saving tests, according to the latest figures. Government statistics show that around 42% of people in Wales waiting for diagnostic tests had to wait more than six weeks before they were finally seen. This compares with 1.8% in England and 3.8% in Scotland.

The statistics also show that 16.6% of patients on the Welsh diagnostic waiting list wait longer than 12 weeks. In Northern Ireland, 15.5% on the list had to wait more than nine weeks. Doctors have described the statistics as incredibly worrying and further proof that the crisis in the NHS in Wales is worsening.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/apr/10/welsh-nhs-waiting-times-uk-tests-patients-wales



The blame lies with those sitting around the cabinet table in Cardiff - Welsh government Labour ministers. It is here where a decision was made in 2010 to cut the NHS budget in Wales in real terms. By deciding not to protect that health funding, as was happening in Conservative-led England, Labour set in motion a chain of events that would heap untold pressure on frontline staff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29754941


The number of cancer sufferers travelling to England has quadrupled from 3,471 a decade ago to 15,450 last year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2800815/patients-mass-exodus-england-labour-blocks-international-inquiry-crisis-hit-welsh-nhs-thousands-cross-border-life-saving-treatment.html

EDIT. 2010 was when the Conservatives got into goverment. One of the first thing they did was to ring fence NHS England from any spending cuts. Labour continued to run the NHS in the three other UK countries. Despite England now being one of the most over populated EU countries, it is still turning around the best % by far of any of the UK countries, for life saving tests. To me, that's gold.

Fair enough.

Sorry, but if you folks want to argue about politics, could you go to another thread?

Sorry, but if you folks want to argue about politics, could you go to another thread?

I'd asked this earlier. Didn't work.

Look I'm not the one sneaking in tired Tory speaking points. Things like "open door immigration policy". There is no open door immigration policy. EU Member State Citizens have certain rights to move here embedded in various EU Treaties.....folk under threat in their non EU homeland have the right to apply for amnesty. Several very well established and well regulated routes exist for non EU partners, workers and students. There is no open category, no open door. Immigration has been shown again and again to bring net benefits to society. "Open door" is an empty xenophobic statement designed to divert away from the savage and so far completely ineffectual cuts of a Government bent on ideological change.

This NHS "ring fencing" for instance.....what it really means is a funding freeze, dressed up in sloppy, obvious PA speak. No one is fooled.

Sirius, I will save you a bit of copy and paste and just link to the Conservative preaching to the choir page:

https://www.conservatives.com/ShareTheFacts.aspx