New Questions.....Surinder Singh possibility????

Hi guys, new questions. We are still exploring all routes to get ourselves to England.
I'm sure I'll have more questions....just like I did in the beginning. Please be kind, I am researching, but you guys have great advice, so I thought I'd start here, while researching.....
Need your help! We have been stuck in the mud with UK immigration since July of 2014. My husband and I are both American born. My husband's mum is British born as were her parents. We want to move to the UK, so we did what we thought we should do, we applied via the UKM form for my husband's citizenship, only to find out we cannot do biometrics as they haven't been set up in the USA as of yet. Crazy right? We applied back in September with no word from UKBA except that there will be a delay due to biometrics inavailability. BUT, they advised if we were urgent we could go to Mexico or Canada and get biometrics done, funny enough though....they still have my hubby's passport so how's that work? It doesn't. SO, we are at the point of investigating the Surinder Singh route and wondering the ins and outs of how to begin? We are thinking of getting another US passport for my husband and going to England for a few months on holiday and completing his biometrics and registration for citizenship there and then going to Ireland for around 6 months and then back to England. Does this seem like a course we could take? Does me living in Ireland with my husband give me EU treaty rights?? How does that work, since it would be me and my three children applying for the family visa to go back to the UK?

Keep in mind, my husband HAD to apply via UKM due to being born to a British mother before 1983.

Surrinder Singh is a bit more complex now than it used to be.  They recommend moving to a third European country for at least a year (Ireland for example).  You'll need to make sure you and your children follow the visa rules for the country you choose as a trailing spouse and dependents (will vary country by country).

You'll also need to fully integrate your lives there.  Get bank accounts, become active in the local community (church, school, volunteer work, etc.).  Ensure if you purchase a car that it is registered in that country, get a local drivers license, etc.  Basically you have to show your life was genuinely in that country and not just a temporary stop on your way to the UK.

One thing to keep in mind about Ireland is that the economy is still struggling and unemployment rates are very high.

Personally I would have your husband travel to Canada and get his biometrics done.  Then you only have to move once. He could apply for a passport card and travel to Canada. 

They recommend moving to a third European country for at least a year

I don't know about this part.

If I recall, there is no, and can be no, set time requirement. A three month period, I think, is seen as a sort of minimum....because EU rulings/regs/case law/something loosely defines (?) anything below three months as not being permanent.

The point...as KF states....is that you are really living there full time. So home ownership, say in New York, where you pop back over and have a car in the drive, while living in a hostel in Ireland....would indicate that you aren't really living in Ireland.

Likewise, if you spent say nine months in France, and couldn't converse on any level in French....this would indicate that you were not really becoming part of the community. If after that 9 months, however, you could show that you had joined a conversational French group that met in the local Library....

But as far as a twelve month requirement, I am almost certain that there is no way that that could be effectuated officially. And I would also think that such a requirement would be difficult to apply "off the record".

But again, as with all these things, certainly you want to work within the system; a protracted fight is not what you are after.

I think really the idea is that the longer you live in the EEA country, the more likely it is that you will be considered to have moved the 'centre of your life' to that country... And so the more likely you will qualify under Surinder Singh.

I too thought that about a year was necessary, but I looked it up and the documentation only mentions a minimum of 3 months... But if I recall correctly, it also says that the length of time you have been there will be considered, along with your husband's work in that country, whether you have kids born there, other family living there, whether you are integrating with the community etc.


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I too thought that about a year was necessary

I have always heard six months bandied about. Just a quick peak at the other boards....there was a guy who did it with three months back in mid 2014....

It seems Case C-456/12 (O and B v The Netherlands) defines it at three months. The UK guidance I could find mentions no time frame at all, but does say that length of time is a consideration. I would assume that three months would be pushing it at best.

Apparently, UK practice is a bit out of line with C-456/12, but from a few immigration law sites it seems that judges are more up-to-date on appeal, so at some point the UK guidance/practice will have to be corrected. May not matter after next year....we may not even be in the EU any longer...

But obviously appeal is not where anyone wants to go...so more time is better.....as it stands now.

I would suggest only that Clover do what she should do. If they take up residence in Ireland....they should actually set up life there. Make it a true and real situation.

But just from a personal perspective - I don't want to be seen as egging anyone on - for me, the crap-shoot nature of Surinder Singh would make me at least think really hard.

You could end up marched back on a flight at a UK airport....with no where to go back to really...at least conveniently....everything up in the air....on the whims of a border guard. He/she will lose no sleep nor get in any trouble.

And you could be screaming about rights and court cases.....knowing that an appeal would perhaps succeed....but ending up back in Ireland or wherever....for god knows how long...

So I would think a backup plan would be in order...keep the lease on the Dublin place for another month....something, while you consider appeal or retrench into another path.

It really shouldn't be this way...freedom of movement of this nature is clearly enshrined in Treaty and backed up completely by case law....but as it is this border guard person could just say they don't want you and off you'd go....to spend another six months in Ireland awaiting an appeal hearing.

Thanks guys. We plan to live in Ireland for a minimum of six months and to fully live the life. We are going to enroll our girls into school there, get them involved in after-school activities, church and the such. They will be homeschooled in England until we move to Ireland around August. Hubby and I know that we can get the international driving permit, but both want to go ahead and get our Irish driving licenses, just in case, and it can only help. I am also wanting to enroll in a Gaelic/Irish language class just for the fun of it, but again it can only help.

We have been in contact with Home Office who advised if it were urgent we could go to Canada or Mexico to enroll biometrics, but we thought it would be easier to just go to England and try to finish the process. We would let Home Office know we are on an extended holiday in England in the next few weeks so hubby can get his biometrics letter and then change his correspondence for his UKM app and info to his parents address in Chippy Norton. By March 1, he will have been in UKM process for 6 months.

Our plan, in a nutshell, is to be in England by March 1, get his biometrics and such done and hopefully wrap up his citizenship and then go to Ireland by July so we can get the ball rolling on our six months in Ireland and be back in England by around the first or second month of 2017. We know it is a risk, anything we do at this point is a risk though, if we stay in the states, we are completely alone with no family support, we would have to move house by March 1st anyway as we are renting(due to trying to get to England). We are completely mobile for this process which is why I think getting set up in England/Ireland is going to be OK for us. I know it will have its trials and hard times, but I don't want to be sitting in a rocking chair in the same town I was born and raised in saying I never tried to get out and have an adventure or two

Well remember....you aren't "asking" the UK for anything. The United Kingdom knew full well about Freedom of Movement when it decided to join the Community, and it knew full well that joining would limit sovereignty in the areas of Community Law (they knew, it was discussed quite thoroughly in Parliament).

EU citizens have the Right to move to and work (including self-employment) in any other Member State, and that Right cannot be abridged by refusing family the same. This includes the Right of return to the Member State of original citizenship.

So don't feel like you are "trying to get away with something". It is not a loophole, but a well-thought-out Right designed specifically to ensure that a level playing field is maintained for European Citizens and to preserve the free flow of people, goods, and service (all of which are intertwined).

Sounds like a great plan!

KF, I can't tell if that's genuine support or sarcasm I won't pretend to know it all, lord knows I don't, but this feels like the right path, just have to get it all in order in 8 weeks!!! I just hope you guys will be patient with my stress and my questions....

Do you know for sure that he will be able to get biometrics done and the process completed if travelling to the UK on a second passport?

I don't know all of the details of how biometrics can be given for UKM so I'm just curious as to the process - i.e. Have UKVI confirmed that you can do it this way? How will you go about booking the appointment for biometrics in the UK? Will they be able to link the biometrics given in the UK to the application sent from the US? How will the documents be sent back to you if you're in the UK and not in the US? etc.


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From what I understand, it's merely a matter of notifying them of our whereabouts. Folks that are going to Canada from the us are getting responses in a couple of days, booked into the vfs site in a week or two. So I'm hoping it is just as easy as letting them know we're in the uk for 5 months and getting booked from there at our local centre.

Ah, okay.

The only thing I'm thinking is that biometrics appointments work differently in the UK compared with the processes in other countries, so I was wondering if it would be as simple as that or not.

Biometrics in the UK cannot be booked online and instead you receive a letter from UKVI in the post inviting you to make a biometrics appointment at a local UK post office. You then have to take the invitation letter with you when you go to the post office so that your biometrics can be processed. There is also a fee of £19.20 to be paid to the post office for the biometrics appointment.

It's probably worth contacting them to check if you will be able to give biometrics in the UK or not and what you will need to do in order to be able to make an appointment for them.


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KF, I can't tell if that's genuine support or sarcasm I won't pretend to know it all, lord knows I don't, but this feels like the right path, just have to get it all in order in 8 weeks!!! I just hope you guys will be patient with my stress and my questions....

Completely and totally genuine.  Sounds like you've truly looked at it from the right angle and have your ducks in a row.

How are employment prospects looking?  My brother-in-law is in Dublin and always moans (could just be him).

Thanks KF!!! 

I know that the unemployment rate is high in Ireland. Hubby has three degrees under his belt here in the states, but I know that means nada overseas. He is a police officer here, but was also in the Air Force and trained as an airplane mechanic,  so we are looking at the airline and security areas, to also include possibly IT/cybercrime work as that is one of his degrees. He is well rounded in many areas and honestly wouldn't say no to a different line of work, he has a lot of options that are somewhat out of the norm, which I know could make it easier or harder to find a job, but we are remaining optimistic Heck, he'd go into landscaping if it kept him in the country