unpleasant border agents + future fiance visa + possible lawyer for reasurance

Fiancée took 5 months’ unpaid leave from job in California and came to stay with me in London! To test out how living together would actually be like in practice (answer = Really Rather Nice  ). Border stuff so far has been not so nice:

July: She came into Heathrow with a return ticket for December, proof of money, proof of continued employment in the US (thank you to this forum for the advice). Got detained and questioned. Border agents called me up for a detailed interview. Released her ca 3.5 hours after landing in a shaky scared state, with a passport stamp permitting stay in UK until December.

August: We spent a week in France and stupidly failed to take all the papers with us (I erroneously thought the stamp made it OK until December). On getting back to the UK we went to the passport desk together. I was pretty shocked at the border agent’s tone: in my daily privileged existence nobody has spoken to me in that tone of voice for quite a number of years! The impression I got is the agent deliberately set out to rattle/upset us and he seemed pleased when this was successful. For any other UK professional I would have sent in a complaint letter. He said he was not obliged to let her back in the UK because of the absence of paperwork but would do it just this once (and I am grateful he did). Made notes on the landing card. I wonder whether something in her computer record now triggers poor treatment.. We recovered for a few hours..

Future: Future immigration decisions are going to be tough anyway, and we are not sure what is going to happen after December. Increasing fear of UK border control is not helping; fiancée is planning two more short trips out of the UK but is tempted to stay here just to avoid the border. Seems stupid, everything we have done has been fully legal with no intention to cheat the system, but it seems impossible to prevent poor treatment even when all your ducks are nicely ligned up.

I know this sounds a bit pathetic and privileged, but we would quite like to pay an immigration lawyer, primarily just for definite info, and reassurance, and to keep the anxiety levels in check. If anyone is able to recommend somewhere with LGBT experience that would be much appreciated.

Thoughts also appreciated. I gather she will not be allowed another 6-month stay without a 6-month break first (?), and I must receive my salary continuously to sponsor her visa (so cannot spend 3 months unpaid leave in California). I suppose the next stage would be the UK fiancé visa although I am not clear at what stage we submit all the data to prove relationship..

Without having applied for a visa in advance (which I personally would have recommended for a long visit), she will have to "take a chance" each and every time she exits and re-enters the UK.  Personally, I would just sit tight until December.  There are too many people on this forum who have been sent straight back to the US for my level of comfort.

You only need a lawyer if she has a serious criminal conviction or a poor immigration history (overstay, etc.).  Otherwise it genuinely is a tick-box visa.  You tick the boxes, you get the visa.

If using your salary, you would either need to have earned £18,600 in the past six months to apply under category A (same employer for six months, no payslips dropping under £1550 a month).  Or £18,600 in the past 12 months if not an even salary (if you took a 3 month break for example but the other 9 months were over the requirement).

I wouldn't worry about a same-sex relationship.  It makes ZERO difference in the UK.  Love is love. 

It's a straight forward visa.  We can help you out.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience at immigration.

Truthfully though, there is absolutely no need for you to use a lawyer for your application. She hasn't been refused entry and as long as she doesn't overstay her 6-month stamp, then there's no reason why your application should be under any particular scrutiny.

Yes, she was questioned, but other than the bad attitude, the immigration officer was telling the truth - she was not obliged to let her back in again. Your fiance's first 6-month visa stamp became invalid the moment she left the UK for France, and so when you came back, she basically had to 'apply' for another visa to enter the UK again... same as the first time.

To be honest, given the issues she had when entering the UK the first time, I would not have recommended taking the trip to France, due to the possibility of her not being allowed back in again.

I know this sounds a bit pathetic and privileged, but we would quite like to pay an immigration lawyer, primarily just for definite info, and reassurance, and to keep the anxiety levels in check. If anyone is able to recommend somewhere with LGBT experience that would be much appreciated.

I would seriously not bother with a lawyer. Most immigration lawyers have very little experience with settlement visa applications filed outside the UK, and honestly, have no idea what they are talking about. We have seen several instances here on the forum where people have been given very bad, and very incorrect advice by lawyers for their visa applications, and had they taken their advice, their visas would have been refused.

We generally only recommend 2 lawyers here on UK-Y: Medivisas (based in London) and Laura Devine (offices in London and New York). They specialise in visa applications made in the US. However, they are expensive (hundreds of pounds, maybe more) and I wouldn't recommend using them unless she has serious criminal convictions, refused UK visas, refused entry to the UK, illegal working or overstaying in the UK.

LGBT couples are treated no differently than mixed-sex couples when it comes to visa applications so that will be irrelevant when it comes to applying

Thoughts also appreciated. I gather she will not be allowed another 6-month stay without a 6-month break first (?)

It's entirely up to the immigration officer at the border as to whether she can come back in as a visitor. There is no official '6 in 12 months' rule, but as she has already been questioned at the border and almost wasn't allowed in, I would leave it as long as possible (preferably at least 6 months) before she comes back in. She could also consider applying for a 6-month visitor visa in advance (this is multiple entry)

Also, I would suggest a shorter visit next time. The longer she wants to visit, the more likely she won't be allowed in (they will wonder why she can take 5-6 months off to visit the UK). A trip of a few weeks, maybe 2 months, will look much better than a trip of 5-6 months.

Essentially, what you're doing with this trip - seeing if you want to live together - is not actually allowed on a visitor visa, so if the immigration officer thinks she is here to try out living with you, they can refuse her entry. As we say here on the forum, there is no 'shacking up' visa - there's no visa that allows you to try out living together without getting married.

My goodness you are making me realise we were actually pretty lucky! It seriously IS common for US nationals to just be sent back? At the airline's expense?

It's entirely up to the immigration officer at the border as to whether she can come back in as a visitor. There is no official '6 in 12 months' rule, but as she has already been questioned at the border and almost wasn't allowed in, I would leave it as long as possible (preferably at least 6 months) before she comes back in. She could also consider applying for a 6-month visitor visa in advance (this is multiple entry)

Wow this is terrifying. Individual whim by a border agent in a bad mood - and that is it, no entry to the UK?

I was thinking that short trips out in October/November could be easier because she would only have 1/2 months left in the UK, so they would be letting her in for a shorter time. But you are saying it gets incrementally harder as they would more and more uncomfortable with increasing quantities of notes and comings/goings on the record. This is massively useful.

I wouldn't recommend using them unless she has serious criminal convictions, refused UK visas, refused entry to the UK, illegal working or overstaying in the UK.

Indeed there is no real need for a lawyer. Maybe I just need to sit down and really read things until I am confident about the full process. Any recs on good sources for fiance visa + the entire process info? One of our major life planning problems is that she would like to travel back and forth regularly, while I am aware there are residency requirements to quality for the various stages of UK settlement.

A visitor's visa is designed for people to travel to the UK and see the sights.  It's not designed for any other purpose.  So, yes if the immigration officer believes a person is not a genuine tourist and is trying to 'live' in the UK, they will send them back to the US.  Only it's not at the airline's expense, it's billed to the person who has been sent back.

I really would not recommend leaving the UK again, as it will get increasingly difficult with each re-entry.  The general rule of thumb is to spend the same amount of time outside the UK as you have spent inside the UK.  So if she left at the end of this month and had been in the UK for two months, she really should not try to re-enter until two months has passed.  Again, it's 100% up to the immigration officer on the day.  They may grant entry, they may not.

The good news is that all of this visitor business won't make any difference to the spouse visa. As others have said, if you can tick the boxes you'll get the visa, regardless of the attitude of the border officials. So yeah, lay low in the UK for the rest of her visit, then sort out the visa, and you'll be fine. And make sure she pays for her NHS treatment and gets receipts! 

Only it's not at the airline's expense, it's billed to the person who has been sent back.

I was sent back in July.  They let me stay in London a week but then I had to come home and they made Virgin Atlantic pay for my ticket bc I didnt have a return ticket booked. 

I hate yall are going through this. I agree being detained and questioned for hours is a horrible experience.  Luckily the border agents I dealt with were extremely nice and I think that is why I was able to stay a week instead of sent home that day. 

My goodness you are making me realise we were actually pretty lucky! It seriously IS common for US nationals to just be sent back? At the airline's expense?

Wow this is terrifying. Individual whim by a border agent in a bad mood - and that is it, no entry to the UK?

No, it's at her expense. They rebook her return ticket (or I guess charge her for a ticket back if she doesn't have a return).

It's not that common to be refused entry. However, unfortunately, US women travelling to the UK to stay with a romantic partner have a bit of a reputation for trying to circumvent the rules and overstay their visitor visas, so they are a little more wary. She may have looked nervous, or said something to flag their suspicions (for example, saying she's only visiting a friend, when in fact, you're more than a friend, can throw up a red flag).

Basically, each time she enters the UK, it's her responsibility to provide evidence to show she will leave the UK, that she does not intend to live in the UK, and that she has ties to the US to return to, such as a job and a home. When you came back in from France, if you'd had that paperwork with you, you might not have had any issues at all.

I was thinking that short trips out in October/November could be easier because she would only have 1/2 months left in the UK, so they would be letting her in for a shorter time. But you are saying it gets incrementally harder as they would more and more uncomfortable with increasing quantities of notes and comings/goings on the record. This is massively useful.

No, I wouldn't risk it. As soon as she leaves the UK, she loses her initial permission to stay, and has to get a 'visa' issued again, providing all the evidence I mentioned above.

The more often she leaves and comes back, the more likely they are to get suspicious...  they generally issue the stamp for 6 months at a time (though they don't have to), so they might think she's trying to wrangle another 6 months in the UK and that she won't leave when she says she will - especially if she's already been questioned twice this year and almost didn't get in last time.

As advised, she should try to spend at least the same amount of time outside the UK as she did inside the UK before she left.

Indeed there is no real need for a lawyer. Maybe I just need to sit down and really read things until I am confident about the full process. Any recs on good sources for fiance visa + the entire process info? One of our major life planning problems is that she would like to travel back and forth regularly, while I am aware there are residency requirements to quality for the various stages of UK settlement.

Good recs:
- read the UKVI website and all the guidance (Appendix FM 1.7, Appendix FM-SE, Guide to Supporting Documents etc.)
- ask questions here on the forum. We've seen hundreds, if not thousands of people going through the fiance/spousal visa process over the last few years. We know the ins and outs of the process, what documents you need, what you shouldn't include etc. - we can help .

Useful links:
https://www.gov.uk/join-family-in-uk/overview
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525708/Appendix_FM_1_7_Financial_Requirement.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-se-family-members-specified-evidence
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-for-uk-visa-for-family-settlement-form-vaf4a

I was sent back in July.  They let me stay in London a week but then I had to come home and they made Virgin Atlantic pay for my ticket bc I didnt have a return ticket booked. 

Wow!  You were VERY VERY lucky.  I've not heard of someone not having to foot the bill for their flight before.   

Though I have heard that the airlines are supposed to do their due diligence before allowing you to board.  Which would explain why when we fly to the US they always ask for my husband's return flight into and when we fly to the UK, they want to see my visa.

I once had an airline refuse to issue me a flight to UK without a return ticket, despite the fact I had a visa that lasted for 3 and a half more years! I argued the logic in that, saying that I had plenty of time to book a ticket back to the states in that time and they eventually let me buy a ticket, after a good half an hour of trying to convince them!

Hi
Being part of an lgbt couple we didnt use a lawyer but used the kind people youll find on this forum.

As long as you dont double post under different users names (i didnt by the way!) they will help you and reassure you until youll be comfortable.

We spent 20 years going back & forth and were very lucky we disnt experience any issues. I think 20 years ago the world was different so we never said "visiting partner" but just " visiting a friend" and my partner being a teacher just said "I'm here for 10 weeks as im on summer break".  That said i dont recommend lying as now they do cross check a lot more than they used to.

Take comfort from the last time my partner (been here 3 years now and got flr in march) and I went through the airport after a trip to France we went through the immigration window together said we were married etc and the man couldnt have been nicer asking about our trip etc. and being totally welcoming

I think some immigration people do push and can be rude but i always say take a breath and let them be snarky and within a few minutes you can be on your way

I wish you both luck and hope youll not be put off by a bad experience.

The people on this board will guide and assist you no end

3 years ago i cried when i started reading the forms etc and thought this is impossible! but take your time then youll see 75% of the form may not even need to be filled in. Buy some highlighters and highlight things and read and read it again. Put it away and the re read it.

It sounds lame but its preetty straight forward - Youll be fine

unfortunately, US women travelling to the UK to stay with a romantic partner have a bit of a reputation for trying to circumvent the rules and overstay their visitor visas, so they are a little more wary.

Deservedly? Because I think US women honour the law probably as much as any nationality. Undeservedly and we are talking about systemic anti-American bigotry.

It's not that common to be refused entry. However, unfortunately, US women travelling to the UK to stay with a romantic partner have a bit of a reputation for trying to circumvent the rules and overstay their visitor visas, so they are a little more wary. She may have looked nervous, or said something to flag their suspicions (for example, saying she's only visiting a friend, when in fact, you're more than a friend, can throw up a red flag).

They seem to be having a massive clampdown in general since they made the visitor changes the other year.

There are quite a few posts where people have had their 10 year visitor visa removed as they were using it to reside in the UK, six months in the UK then leave for 6 months, then back for 6 months. Others are pointing out they were not allowed to reside and that they should be visiting for a few weeks here and there, but stay for no more than 6 months in any 12 months.

Anonther thing the UK seems to be stopping is those who claim they are only going to visit for 2 months, but then stay for 4/5 months and leave before their 6 months date is up. When they try again, there are posts now saying that they were refused because of their previous visit.

Hello! This is a further question and I am not sure whether to start a new topic.

Californian fiancée is off work July - December to be with me in London, entered the UK on the visa wavier in July and again in August with difficulties (original post above). We understand it is inadvisable to re-enter again on this July - December stay because she may be refused entry as per the border agent judgement.

Her mother is quite ill and she is keen to visit the US in the interim. She would like to know how to do this correctly according to the rules, without a significant chance of being turned away. Can she return to California now, and apply for a multi entry visitor visa from there for October - December? How long would this take and would they definitely grant it? The online UK visa application system seems to not accept US passports as US passport holders do not need a visa.

With gratitude again for your advice.

Hello! This is a further question and I am not sure whether to start a new topic.

Californian fiancée is off work July - December to be with me in London, entered the UK on the visa wavier in July and again in August with difficulties (original post above). We understand it is inadvisable to re-enter again on this July - December stay because she may be refused entry as per the border agent judgement.

Her mother is quite ill and she is keen to visit the US in the interim. She would like to know how to do this correctly according to the rules, without a significant chance of being turned away. Can she return to California now, and apply for a multi entry visitor visa from there for October - December? How long would this take and would they definitely grant it? The online UK visa application system seems to not accept US passports as US passport holders do not need a visa.

With gratitude again for your advice.

I'm sorry to hear about her mom.

It would definitely be advisable to apply for a visa in advance of her return, as you know, there is a high chance of being refused entry if she doesn't.

Start here, ignore the part about extending your stay, that doesn't apply in her case. She needs to apply from the US.

https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa/apply

Just a couple of points, there is no visa waver for the UK, that's a US thing and the stamp she got at the airport, that is her visa!