Author Topic: Surrinder Singh route under attack  (Read 746 times)

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Offline Dave2726

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Surrinder Singh route under attack
« on: January 17, 2017, 05:51:27 AM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38597384


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Offline sonofasailor

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 07:12:10 AM »
I see nothing about enforcement targeting the actual crooks here. Much like shady gangmasters.
Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across - Sun Tzu

Offline Dave2726

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2017, 08:08:40 AM »
I see nothing about enforcement targeting the actual crooks here. Much like shady gangmasters.

Although focussed on crooks defrauding their victims of hard earned cash, the article came across to me as having a right dig at those who use the Surinder Singh route in general.


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Offline sonofasailor

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2017, 10:21:16 AM »
Although focussed on crooks defrauding their victims of hard earned cash, the article came across to me as having a right dig at those who use the Surinder Singh route in general.

Absolutely. I'm not sure that the BBC hasn't been compromised.
Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across - Sun Tzu

Offline Sirius

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 01:05:58 PM »
Old news.
http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=88876.0

It will only affect those 3rd county citizens who used "fraud" as the UK government calls it (linked above) to avoid UK immigration rules to enter the UK. These new rules won't affect those who are using the Singh ruling correctly.

This has been on the cards for months/years(?), ever since the European Court of Justice told EEA countries that 3rd country citizens could not use their Singh ruling just to avoid the immgiration rules of that EEA country.

Up to date forums were already aware months ago that this was being stopped. We are already seeing posts from third country citizens affected by the changes to Regulation 9 (linked above), some as far back as entering the UK in May with a British citizen. They took a chance they would get in before the new rules cut off and have missed it.

As has also been discussed on the up to date forums, for those who used Singh to enter the UK before just to avoid UK immigration laws and are not caught under the new rules, there is still the problem for them of whether the UK will accept the European Court of Justice rulings anymore after a Brexit. Singh is one of the ECJ rulings.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 01:14:18 PM by Sirius »

Offline Dave2726

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 01:12:09 PM »
Interesting. So as usual the BBC hasn't done any research and has half reported some sensational tripe to wind-up the masses on the back of anti-immigrant Brexit sentiment (xenophobia in my book)!


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Offline larrabee

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 01:36:35 PM »
I think this is different though.

From Dave's article.

Quote
The fraudsters are charging thousands of pounds to create a fake life so it looks like someone has genuinely moved to a European country - in most cases Ireland - while in fact they have stayed in the UK.   

The way it reads to me, it's not about the rules being tightened on people who use Singh to avoid their own countries immigration rules, rather, these people are not even moving to the EU country (Ireland given as the example) but are living in the UK and paying for fraudulent documents to appear as if they had been living in Ireland. So they are committing pretty blatant immigration fraud themselves.
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Offline Sirius

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 01:44:24 PM »
Interesting. So as usual the BBC hasn't done any research and has half reported some sensational tripe to wind-up the masses on the back of anti-immigrant Brexit sentiment (xenophobia in my book)!

Partly. It has been known on the forums for years that Ireland was the most popular country to use. And well known for many months that Ireand has been helping the UK, by delaying those 3rd country citizens who try to use Ireland to then enter the the UK on Singh "fraud". The UK then delayed their RCs. A lot of those starting their journey as far back as 2015, will be caught out be the Regulation 9 changes on Singh. If you read the changes, only the genuine users of Singh will not be affected.

The other thing spotted on these forums was that the UK has never talked about incorporating EJC rulings with their Great Repeal Bill. Singh is one of the EJC rulings. Something to look out for when more details of a Brexit are known because as we know, EU rules in the UK will end on a Brexit.

Offline Dave2726

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2017, 01:46:09 PM »
I'm not sure why anybody would pay as much as the article suggests though (£25k from memory). Against the cost of the 5 year route, its grossly disproportionate. It seems to me like the only people who are getting defrauded are those attempting to do this in the first place.


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Offline Sirius

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2017, 02:00:12 PM »
I think this is different though.

From Dave's article.

The way it reads to me, it's not about the rules being tightened on people who use Singh to avoid their own countries immigration rules, rather, these people are not even moving to the EU country (Ireland given as the example) but are living in the UK and paying for fraudulent documents to appear as if they had been living in Ireland. So they are committing pretty blatant immigration fraud themselves.

Ooops thanks. I never read articles form the BBC. I just assumed it was about the known  fraud already being used for Singh.

Many didn't want to have to move their "centre of life" to another country to abuse Singh and it looks like they have found another abuse too for that. Get British citizenship, then abuse Singh to bring in lots of relatives from back home, was a well worn route, but it reads like many found another angle on that.

Another well know route was to marry an Eastern european girl, move to the UK with all the relatives from back home (parents, grandparents, siblings, cousins, neice and nephews and all their families - EJC court ruling) and all allowed UK benefits.  Husband and wife don't have to live together (as the European Court of Justice ssid they didn't have to) then make sure the divorce doesn't come through before 3 year (another EJC ruling) so that they all get to stay in the UK under EJC rulings. Brexit is causing a lot of worry for those already in the UK on these rulings. As is what the UK will give them after a Brexit even if they can stay.

When the TOEIC scandle was exposed, the UK gathered up and qucikly deported 50,000 over that. The latest round of those being deported, is over Tier 1 visa abuse used. Now this looks like Singh is the next round for deportations.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 02:16:17 PM by Sirius »

Offline Sirius

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2017, 02:22:25 PM »
I'm not sure why anybody would pay as much as the article suggests though (£25k from memory). Against the cost of the 5 year route, its grossly disproportionate. It seems to me like the only people who are getting defrauded are those attempting to do this in the first place.

They don't have to give up their council house, Don't have to take their children out of school. Both parents keep their UK jobs. They keep all their UK benefits. Don't have to wait 3 months before they can claim benefits again. Don't have to buy health insurance for all their family they take from the UK and all their relatives from their home country that they take to Ireland (the Irish healthcare system is expensive). Don't have to work in Ireland etc

Don't forget that EJC rulings allows lots of people to enter the UK, not just a spouse. Elderly parent and grandparents could then be given to the UK taxpayers to look after under EU rulings. All their non- EU siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews and all their families could use the schools, work, have council housing, free NHS and UK benefits. etc

The Eind EJC ruling said that their Brit can be treated as a "worker qualified person" even if they don't work, which meant all their non-EU relatives could have everything from the UK as they get what a worker can have too, even if they don't work and their Brit sponsors can carry on not working.

There are lots of very strange rulings from the ECJ, that EEA countries did not sign up to and EEA counties are fed up with these rulings. i.e. The UK wants people from countries where TB is present, to be Xrayed to avoid the spead in the UK. If they enter via EU rules, the EU says they can move to the UK without an Xray showing they are clear of TB.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 02:50:54 PM by Sirius »

Offline Dave2726

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 02:51:09 PM »
They don't have to give up their council house, Don't have to take their children out of school. Both parents keep their UK jobs. They keep all their UK benefits. Don't have to wait 3 months before they can claim benefits again. Don't have to buy health insurance for all their family they take from the UK and all their relatives from their home country that they take to Ireland (the Irish healthcare system is expensive). Don't have to work in Ireland etc

Don't forget that EJC rulings allows lots of people to enter the UK, not just a spouse. Elderly parent and grandparents could then be given to the UK taxpayers to llok after under EU rulings. All their non- EU siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews and all their families could use the schools, work, have council housing, free NHS and UK benefits. etc

The Eind EJC ruling said that their Brit can be treated as a "worker qualified person" even if they don't work, which meant all their non-EU relatives could have everything from the UK as they get what a worker can have too, even if they don't work and their Brit sponsors can carry on not working.

There are lots of very strange rulings from the ECJ, that EEA countries did not sign up to and EEA counties are fed up with these rulings. i.e. The UK wants people from countries where TB is present, to be Xrayed to avoid the spead in the UK. If they enter via EU rules, the EU says they can move to the UK without an Xray showing they are clear of TB.

Fair cop. I think I'm changing my opinion to "those b@stards" then. Loving the fact checking service on UKY!


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Offline Sirius

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 04:37:11 PM »
Loving the fact checking service on UKY!

It seems it was a scam in Ireland. The Irish police have smashed one of those scams for the Singh route and are sharing that information with other EEA countries so that they can act if these people are now in their country.

These scams of providing fasle documents to pretend they worked there, has been seen before in the UK for the now closed Tier 1 (General) visa.

Every now and again we still see posts from those who used that scam to get a visa extension in the past, expressing surprise that they are given a deportation notice now years later and that they "are innocent". They get the usual reply from that fourm of "get caught in a lie, kiss your visa goodbye".


You are never going to stop these scams. We had the bogus college scams before and the English exam scam, that saw thousands deported and are still being deported now when they come to the attention of UKVI.

The UK's new Immigration Act 2016 will now do what it was brought in for.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 04:52:13 PM by Sirius »

Offline sonofasailor

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2017, 08:22:53 AM »
Remember the burger chain? Hires illegal immigrants....pays them god knows what....is caught by Home Office. Calls staff in for "training meeting"....Home Office springs out, arrests them and deports them. Burger chain skips off into the sunset. Probably keeps last paycheck.

I bet we never hear a peep about these fraudsters being arrested....
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Offline larrabee

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Re: Surrinder Singh route under attack
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2017, 08:33:14 AM »
Remember the burger chain? Hires illegal immigrants....pays them god knows what....is caught by Home Office. Calls staff in for "training meeting"....Home Office springs out, arrests them and deports them. Burger chain skips off into the sunset. Probably keeps last paycheck.

I bet we never hear a peep about these fraudsters being arrested....

Was that some time ago? They are coming down very hard now on people who hire illegal immigrants.

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You can be sent to jail for 5 years and pay an unlimited fine if you’re found guilty of employing someone who you knew or had ‘reasonable cause to believe’ didn’t have the right to work in the UK.

This includes, for example, if you had any reason to believe that:

    they didn’t have leave (permission) to enter or remain in the UK
    their leave had expired
    they weren’t allowed to do certain types of work
    their papers were incorrect or false
 

Quote
You can also be penalised if you employ someone who doesn’t have the right to work and you didn’t do the correct checks, or you didn’t do them properly.

If this happens, you might get a ‘referral notice’ to let you know your case is being considered and that you might have to pay a civil penalty (fine) of up to £20,000 for each illegal worker.

https://www.gov.uk/penalties-for-employing-illegal-workers
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 08:34:16 AM by larrabee »
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