American previously refused entry clearance (over a decade ago)

This is a very long story so I will try to make it brief. 12 years ago I was 18 and applied to go to the UK as a volunteer to work in a church. Due to the incompetence of the organization I was going with(the International Mission Board), I was subsequently denied 4 visas(a 5th one 2 years later). Being 18 and 1-2 months out from graduating high school, I knew nothing about visas or needing permission to enter countries. I literally just thought a visa was a credit card and nothing else (man, was I sheltered.) Okay, so initially they (the IMB) told us volunteers that we would all just come over for 6 months without a visa and then fly to Ireland to reset it for the rest of the year. Yes, illegal, but again I had no idea how any of this worked so I was just relying on them to tell me the truth. Then the group finds out we need visa, and so the biggest disaster of my life begins.

Now I was supposed to go with 5-6 other Americans but we would all be volunteering in different churches and living for free with church members. The first time we all applied for visas, everyone was denied but one dude. The second time, everyone else was approved but me. I was the only one having so many issues, and the British consulate scheduled a phone interview with me for my 3rd application.

The night before the interview, I was coached on what questions they would ask and what I needed to answer. When the time came for my 10AM call the British Consulate did not call on time. I started freaking out, by now my anxiety was through the roof and when they called at 10:20-something I was more than a little frazzled (once again, I'm 18, basically still a kid). The lady starts asking the questions I expected, I tell her what they told me (I can't really give a lot of detailed info because I don't know exactly what I'll be doing there as I haven't actually done it yet.) She then says, "Your application states you'll be receiving weekly training at one of the churches. Approximately how many hours would you say this will be?" Now I was panicked because they never told me how much and I had no earthly idea so I just blurted out the first number that came into my head. 20. 20 flipping hours. The actual answer was 1-2.

The interview concludes and she asks if I felt unsure or intimidated at any time (how can I say yes to that without them thinking I'm lying?) I think everything is good, the visa is on it's way. Next day we find out I was denied again. They said 20 hours is too many for a volunteer. They essentially think I'm lying about what visa I need and I should be applying for a student one instead. Now I have 3 stamps in my passport for the visa denials. Not good. But the IMB + the organization in the UK + my passport agent in the US say I should be able to come to the UK without one since I should be able to stay for 6 months and apply a 4th time there. Of course there's a small risk of something happening but if I'm willing to take the risk they think it's worth it. Considering all my friends have left for college now and I quit my job to do this I don't have much of a choice.

Flash forward 2 days later. I arrive in London Gatwick, wait through a 2 hour customs line, and when I finally reach the customs desk everything seems to be in order until the customs officer sees 3 visa denial stamps. I was then summarily detained and interrogated for 6 hours, locked in a room with 3 men who I was told were all in there for lying. It was the most traumatic day of my life.

At the end of the 6 hours I was refused entry clearance and sent back to the US, where I applied a 4th time (and of course was denied). I then slowly pieced my life back together and went to college and later made a trip to Ireland for spring break where I took the ferry to Wales and gained entry.

My question is: now, 12 years later with a new passport that does not have those visa denial stamps (and has the stamps of dozens of countries I have successfully visited) what is the likelihood I would have trouble entering the UK today? My husband has an English grandmother who lives in the US and we're considering trying to go with her next year to visit her sisters one last time before one of them passes. I would like to think after all this time I would not encounter any problems, but seeing as I've been too terrified to go through customs in a London airport since I have no idea. I have traveled through Heathrow for connecting flights to Croatia and Kenya but I've never attempted to enter the UK through a London airport since my last time was so thoroughly traumatic.

If anyone can advise I would most appreciate it. This question has literally plagued me for over a decade and I'm ready to know once and for all.

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear about all your visa troubles 12 years ago.

My question is: now, 12 years later with a new passport that does not have those visa denial stamps (and has the stamps of dozens of countries I have successfully visited) what is the likelihood I would have trouble entering the UK today?

Just because you have a new passport, does not mean they won't know you were refused 4 visas... your entire immigration history is linked to every passport you have and the immigration officers can look it all up on their computer with a click of a button and will see all your visa refusals.

With 4 previous refused visas, and a questionable trip to Wales (since it could have looked like you were deliberately trying to evade UK immigration by entering through Ireland), I would say it's very unlikely you will be allowed into the UK without applying for a visitor visa in advance.

You could try it, but I would seriously advise against it, given your immigration history... you could find yourself in the same position as before.

The best thing to do would be to apply for a visitor visa in advance of travel, declaring all your refused visas, and including any and all paperwork you have from them. You will also need to include your previous passport with the stamps in it.

If you can convince UKVI that you are a genuine visitor, have no plans to live or work in the UK, and you have a life to return to in the US (a home and a job), then you may well be issued a visitor visa. It will also work in your favour that it's been 12 years since you last tried to enter and that you have legally entered several other countries since then.

See here for information about how to apply: https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa/overview

Thanks for your response. The thing is that I've gone through British customs at Heathrow a few times for connecting flights with no problems whatsoever, so I almost wonder if it's already in the past since I got my current passport after the whole visa disaster so I could have a clean slate.

The trauma is not something I ever want to repeat and I'm afraid I have little to no faith in the British immigration system since I flew from Virginia to NYC to lodge a 5th application in person at the British consulate in 2007 (2 years after all that happened) and all they did was snatch my paperwork and tell me to leave (I thought if I came in person I could sit down with someone and explain what happened.) That was an attempt at being honest and getting the entry clearance visa so I could enter as a tourist and get some closure over the whole sordid ordeal, but it was denied as well and I was told that since I said I wasn't nervous or intimidated in the phone interview they considered everything I said to be binding and true, soooo basically damned if I do damned if I don't, hence why I took my visa agent's advice and did the Dublin to Wales ferry because I knew I'd never get my closure otherwise.

To be perfectly frank, I'm more inclined to just fly to Dublin and do the ferry route again if this is likely to pose a problem since that is how high a level of mistrust I've been left with from British immigration. I know I'm not a criminal and I've never intended to steal British jobs or hurt British citizens, but I don't think I'll ever be able to convince the British consulate of that. :/

Please know I appreciate your advice a lot tho. It's still a very raw subject even after all this time. Completely destroyed my life back then if I'm honest (even though I know that sounds beyond dramatic, it's true).

I would just follow ksand's advice and apply for a visit visa in advance.  It's been 12 years.  These things happen.  For the application you need:

Itenerary (sounds like you'd be staying a week or so?)
A letter from your employer showing your job to return to
Proof of a home you will maintain in the US (lease or mortgage)
Bank statement showing sufficient funds for your trip

You'll get a visa without any trouble I suspect.   

Transit through London will have been different, as you were transferring.  But still take that as a positive sign that things will be fine now.

Personally I wouldn't recommend flying into Ireland and taking a ferry.  That type of activity looks really suspicious and it could lead to a ban if immigration determined you were using that route to skirt UK immigration (and I've heard Ireland is a LOT tougher about entry than the UK).  Why risk it?  It's been 12 years. Put a pin in the past, make an application, and go visit your grandmother-in-law.  You are doing nothing wrong.

The thing about that trip to Ireland is that was in March 2009 so exactly 8 years ago and everything seemed to be fine there. I entered Ireland with a return ticket for a week later, took the ferry for the next day with a return ferry ticket (and airline ticket from Dublin) so it was clear how temporary my visit was. They didn't even stamp my passport at the Holyhead ferry station but I did go through an immigration officer (i.e. I didn't swim in). I just came in an alternate way. I'm sure it sounds bad but I don't even see how it's illegal that I took the ferry since I paid for everything and went through the customs officer there. I considered it similar to how someone visiting the US would enter from the Canadian border for a few days.

Still, I understand post 9/11 security is much tighter and everyone is suspicious of everyone, (plus this whole thing happened 2 months after the London bombings) so I just took an alternate route rather than being subject to the British consulate's mercy a 6th time around. We've discussed going to Dublin for a few days, touring around and then taking the ferry and touring Britain for a week or so and visiting family. On paper there's nothing really illegal about it, the method just looks funky because of my history. I basically did what I would advise anyone having problems with US immigration to do.

I'm still honestly curious though if all this is a moot point and I would have zero problems just entering a London airport after all this time given my lack of issues at Heathrow as recently as this week.

I would just follow ksand's advice and apply for a visit visa in advance.  It's been 12 years.  These things happen.

The thing is I tried to apply for a 5th one 2 years after the fact and that was rejected citing my earlier phone interview. I tried to jump through every hoop and do things their way, I even took the day off, wasted money on a flight to the NYC consulate where I had an appt. thinking I could sit down across from someone and make them understand what had happened only to find out I basically did all that only to hand my application to a person and be shown the door in lieu of mailing it in. The problem is on paper it looks so cut and dry but some people in an office don't see the real people their decisions affect.

Thanks for your response. The thing is that I've gone through British customs at Heathrow a few times for connecting flights with no problems whatsoever, so I almost wonder if it's already in the past since I got my current passport after the whole visa disaster so I could have a clean slate.

But you weren't staying in the country those times, so you didn't have to prove you were a genuine visitor to the UK.

If you have been refused a visa in the past, it is strongly advised that you apply for a visitor visa in advance of travel... if only for peace of mind.

It only costs about £90, it will be multiple entry for 6 months and you won't have to worry about whether you will be let in when you get off the plane. If it gets refused, then it's refused, but it's much better and cheaper than flying all the way to the UK and getting refused.

If you only had one visa refusal behind you, I would say it might be okay, but with 4 refusals (or 5 refusals?), a refused entry, and a questionable visit to Wales, I wouldn't risk it. You don't want to chance another refusal after 10 years of a clean immigration record.

To be allowed into the UK for a visit, you must be able to prove:
- you will leave within 6 months
- you have enough money in your bank account to support your visit
- you have strong ties to the US that mean you HAVE to return and won't try to overstay, such as maintaining a home, taking leave from your job, family members you need to get back to, other commitments such as events to attend, courses booked, interviews, things like that.

The trauma is not something I ever want to repeat and I'm afraid I have little to no faith in the British immigration system since I flew from Virginia to NYC to lodge a 5th application in person at the British consulate in 2007 (2 years after all that happened) and all they did was snatch my paperwork and tell me to leave (I thought if I came in person I could sit down with someone and explain what happened.)

Ah, that's because no one was allowed to submit an application in person then - applications could only be processed by mail. You were rightly turned away and you are very lucky they even took your documents

Back in 2007, the only people who were authorised to submit an application in person were special visa couriers, who you had to pay to submit your application for you for priority processing.

These days, it is possible to do an in-person application in New York, but it's a Super Premium Service that costs about $1,000 extra!

Please know I appreciate your advice a lot tho. It's still a very raw subject even after all this time. Completely destroyed my life back then if I'm honest (even though I know that sounds beyond dramatic, it's true).

Oh, I know the feeling. In 2007, I made a split-second decision that still affects me now... I got into my car when I was slightly over the limit. I was stopped by the police, arrested and convicted of a DUI. I was 4 months away from applying for a US student visa to study for a PhD.

As a result, I was told by the US Embassy that I will require a visa to enter the US for the rest of my life and I have since been granted 3 US visas (student visa, 2 visitor visas). Like you, I wonder if technically I would be okay to travel without a visa, since the DUI isn't a CIMT, but I'm not going to risk it, because US immigration already know my travel history.

I am also banned from entering Canada and I will need a visa to enter a number of other countries too. I'm not a bad person... I made one 5-minute mistake at 3 am on a Wednesday morning when I was 24... but it will affect my immigration status for the rest of my life.

Oh, I know the feeling. In 2007, I made a split-second decision that still affects me now... I got into my car when I was slightly over the limit. I was stopped by the police, arrested and convicted of a DUI. I was 4 months away from applying for a US student visa to study for a PhD.

As a result, I was told by the US Embassy that I will require a visa to enter the US for the rest of my life and I have since been granted 3 US visas (student visa, 2 visitor visas). Like you, I wonder if technically I would be okay to travel without a visa, since the DUI isn't a CIMT, but I'm not going to risk it, because US immigration already know my travel history.

I am also banned from entering Canada and I will need a visa to enter a number of other countries too. I'm not a bad person... I made one 5-minute mistake at 3 am on a Wednesday morning when I was 24... but it will affect my immigration status for the rest of my life.

That is so frustrating! I know how you feel, in my case it's like the naive decision of an 18 year old will haunt me forever all because I wanted to volunteer in Wales for a year and see where my family immigrated from (I'm 4th generation immigrant so I don't qualify for the ancestry visa). I literally never got into any trouble, I didn't even drink until I was at the 21 year US age limit and I've never done any drugs or participated in activities the British government could deem dangerous. It all just looks terrible because of this clusterf*ck of a situation that happened when a group of people who didn't know what they were doing messed up my record. It messed with my head so much I was (and still am) terrified anytime I think of visiting a country and hear they need a visa. My other qualm is that if I apply through all the proper channels and it's denied again, then I'm screwed for another decade and I won't be able to visit at all! The most frustrating thing is I tried at every turn to do things their way and when it all failed I just took the advice I got which was the only way I would ever enter the UK was to swim (or drive from France/ferry from Ireland.)

The thing about that trip to Ireland is that was in March 2009 so exactly 8 years ago and everything seemed to be fine there.

Of course, it was fine there, because you didn't go through UK immigration.

There are no immigration controls between Ireland and the UK. You were allowed into Ireland on a 3-month Irish visitor visa and then you went to Wales on that visitor visa. At no time did you have to go through UK immigration... and in fact, it is illegal for UK immigration to stamp your passport if you come in through Ireland (which can be a problem for people moving to the UK on long-term visas).

It's not technically illegal, but it could look like you were deliberately trying not to go through UK immigration because you thought you wouldn't be allowed in.

It could have been a case of:
"Well, I'm not allowed into the UK, oh, but look, there's a loophole: if I go in through Ireland, I can sneak into the UK and they won't even know I'm there!"

And if the UK think you did this, you could be banned from entering for 10 years... which is much worse than being refused a visitor visa.

My honest, genuine opinion is that you are overthinking this.  I would tell you if you needed to be nervous - promise!  You were 18.  You must be 30 now?  Your life is different, immigration is CRAZY different.

You want to know something else?  You don't need to take a ferry to avoid UK immigration.  Just fly from Ireland, you don't go through UK immigration.

But yes, while it is 100% legal to do so, it *COULD* be used against you as a form of deception.

Think about what you are saying to us:

 - You are saying we are making light of the situation that you have numerous past refusals over a decade ago.  We genuinely don't think that will be an issue if you address it now and submit a fresh application.  Plus after you have that approval under your belt, you won't have this fear lingering over your head about traveling through the UK now.

 - Yet at the same time you are telling us that traveling to Ireland and taking a ferry over to mainland UK does NOT look suspicious.

You are very intelligent - I can tell.  Think about it....

- You are saying we are making light of the situation that you have numerous past refusals over a decade ago.  We genuinely don't think that will be an issue if you address it now and submit a fresh application.  Plus after you have that approval under your belt, you won't have this fear lingering over your head about traveling through the UK now.

 - Yet at the same time you are telling us that traveling to Ireland and taking a ferry over to mainland UK does NOT look suspicious.

You are very intelligent - I can tell.  Think about it....

I'm not saying it doesn't look suspicious, only that I have a lower level of trust for British immigration after the way they handled my case and I don't have money for lawyers who could have put this to rights ages ago. If I do apply and they deny me a 6th visa which I very much expect them to, what happens then? I'm still blacklisted from entering for who knows how long.

It could have been a case of:
"Well, I'm not allowed into the UK, oh, but look, there's a loophole: if I go in through Ireland, I can sneak into the UK and they won't even know I'm there!"

And if the UK think you did this, you could be banned from entering for 10 years... which is much worse than being refused a visitor visa.

Ok but if I disclose that I already did this as I'm being advised to won't that just lead them to slap a 10 year ban on me (and screw my chances of ever getting a visa in the future?)

I'm not saying it doesn't look suspicious, only that I have a lower level of trust for British immigration after the way they handled my case and I don't have money for lawyers who could have put this to rights ages ago. If I do apply and they deny me a 6th visa which I very much expect them to, what happens then? I'm still blacklisted from entering for who knows how long.

No, you would be in no different a position than you are this very moment.  When you have a past refusal, they "strongly recommend" that you apply in advance for a visitor visa.  Simply for as you discovered in the past.  Without an advance visa, they'll throw you in the side room and question you for hours.  With an advance visa, they'll ask you a couple of questions (to see if the answers match your application), stamp you in and send you on your merry way.

IF the visa was refused, you would have a few options.  One being to immediately reapply and address their concerns in the refusal.  So long as you didn't receive a ban (which would only happen if they felt you were being deceptive), you could reapply immediately and as often as you like.   

Ok but if I disclose that I already did this as I'm being advised to won't that just lead them to slap a 10 year ban on me (and screw my chances of ever getting a visa in the future?)

Nope...not for that -  they can only give you a 10-year ban if they CAUGHT you using deception to enter the UK at the time of the trip. If you are honest in the application and disclose all the refusals in the past, and include paperwork, they will see you are not trying to hide anything and therefore will not think you are trying to use deception.

However, if you deliberately didn't mention your refusals because you thought it would make you look bad, and then they found out that you were hiding them, THAT could lead to a ban.

Like KFDancer said, you're overthinking this. Just be completely honest in the application, provide the documents to show you are a genuine visitor, and you will likely get the visa.

Your safest option which will give you the best chance of being able to enter the UK in future is to apply for a visitor visa in advance.

Your riskiest option is to try to fly to the UK without a visa - chances are you will find yourself right back in that interrogation room and probably put on the next plane back to the US.

No, you would be in no different a position than you are this very moment.  When you have a past refusal, they "strongly recommend" that you apply in advance for a visitor visa.  Simply for as you discovered in the past.  Without an advance visa, they'll throw you in the side room and question you for hours.  With an advance visa, they'll ask you a couple of questions (to see if the answers match your application), stamp you in and send you on your merry way.

IF the visa was refused, you would have a few options.  One being to immediately reapply and address their concerns in the refusal.  So long as you didn't receive a ban (which would only happen if they felt you were being deceptive), you could reapply immediately and as often as you like.   

True, but that could turn into another never-ending episode of visa denials except now my husband would be dragged into the situation as well because he would have to change/cancel his travel plans (and when I tried to apply for the visitor visa in 2007 I was required to already have a plane ticket booked. I mean... wtf do they expect people to do with those tickets once they deny the visa?)