Author Topic: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move  (Read 856 times)

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Offline -9intend0-

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Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« on: April 20, 2017, 06:04:46 AM »
Hello!

My name is Antonio. I've had a passion (obsession?) with England since I was 6. Learning about the revolutionary war I always shook my head at the foolishness of America to leave it's wonderful roots. I've always pined for what could be but I'm hoping to turn the dream into a reality soon!

I still live with my parents and two sisters, one a teenager the other an adult. My first step is acquiring Italian citizenship for all of us through my father. My hope is that by the time the Brexit is negotiated we will still have the opportunity to get permanent residency in the UK.

We've visited the UK only twice but each time we didn't want to leave. We know that vacation and living somewhere are two different things but there's something special about the UK. Is it the people? The culture? The TV shows? The accent? It's all that and more. It feels like home more than any place we've been to.

I'm glad to be a part of this community as I begin to take the steps to, hopefully, become a UK Yankee  ;D

Online KFdancer

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 09:17:03 AM »
Welcome!

Unfortunately that path is going to close very very soon and the Italians are known for being very very slow.  Hopefully you can get your Italian documents and moved over in time.   :)

Offline -9intend0-

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 09:35:33 AM »
We just visited the UK (flying back to the US soon) and all our friends said that most likely immigration from the EU wont stop, it'll just be controlled and slowed down a bit.

Worst case scenario, I'm moving to Ireland. It's not the UK but it's a close second...

Online KFdancer

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 09:47:51 AM »
I wouldn't be quite so sure that immigration won't stop.  I think EU citizens will find themselves having to qualify for visas in the traditional manor non-EU citizens currently do (same as applying as an American for example).  That's kind of the big problem with Brexit - we don't know what's going to happen!  But with a bit of luck, it'll work out just fine for you.

Offline Dennis the Menace!!

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 02:09:23 PM »
Hi Antonio,

Welcome to the forum firstly!

Secondly, this place is great to research and learn more about the UK and ways to legally move here. Ksand24 is particularly notable in that she's able to provide accurate information with regards to the ways and requirements of getting Visa's along with various aspects of UK life as she's a Brit from here but has lived in the US as well. KF Dancer also has excellent knowledge too. There's plenty more that would take up the whole post for name dropping who are equally versed in various aspects. I mention them all in that they're regular contributors here so definitely use this forum along with any others to help build your knowledge up in order to evaluate if a move here is indeed in yours and your family's best interests.

I, myself have visited the US more times I can remember, have lots of family and relatives there, all their extended family and friends too. I used to work for 3 US IT/Financial software houses, have some of my personal friends who have lived in the US, along with now more business associates over there too. I like to think that along with the many and varied members here on UKY (some of who'm I've met at local events and drinks etc) I have a unique perspective on things to do with both countries, but I also tend to think a little 'against the grain' here on UKY for when it comes to thinking about moving to the UK. I've seen MANY people in exactly your situation come here and then, move back relatively quickly once the 'romance' had worn off. To keep things balanced, I've also seen some remain here after the 'romance' had worn off too. The reason I mention this as so far you've got the 'romance' thing only as your reason to move.

As mentioned by KFdancer, the next few years at least, and most likely longer into the medium/longer term future of 5-10 years+ it's looking more likely immigration into the UK will become even harder than it was already. Just today, a large proportion of the UK population are cheering that it's looking likely Theresa May will push for the end of the free flow of workers AND coming out of the Single Market AND to end the rule of the European Court of Justice

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/794046/theresa-may-end-free-movement-britain-single-market-european-court-of-justice-conservative

So your current thought of getting Italian Citizenship, then getting easy 'free flow' migration is looking difficult and that's without the notorious slow pace of Italian red tape.

You'll need to look at alternative routes to come here to the UK, or what's potentially going to be left of it if the Scottish to decide to go independent and also, as it looking likely as well, if Ireland also unites with Northern Ireland and also goes independent.

What kind of career/work/business are you in? I think soon, the best chances of moving to the UK will be if you are in a career with a severe shortage of candidates here in the UK and suitably experienced and qualified or, if you can invest significant amounts into an existing business or start a new one here.

In amongst all your research, come to visit the UK and see if you can either spend 1/2 weeks here quite frequently, or perhaps a longer stint of 1/2 months so you can get a better feel of day to day living and aspects that tie in to what you'll read here and other resources.

If you can provide more information on your background, career work/business experience, age and skillset etc, then more useful information from members here may prove useful.

Cheers, DtM ! West London & Slough UK!

Offline Sirius

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 12:50:07 AM »

I still live with my parents and two sisters, one a teenager the other an adult. My first step is acquiring Italian citizenship for all of us through my father. My hope is that by the time the Brexit is negotiated we will still have the opportunity to get permanent residency in the UK.

It takes at least 5 years to get PR, but PR is EU law too. So you would need 6 years of you all being lawfully in the UK at all times, to even be able to apply for British citizenship. It is unlikely you will have 6 years before Brexit as that will be March 2019. You will need to see over the next few months, who might be allowed to stay after Brexit and on what terms that will be. 

It's not just moving to the UK either. While the UK is still in the EU - you can only stay for 3 months, to visit (make sure you all have health insurance) . Any longer than that 3 months, then the adults must to be a "qualified person" at all times - Worker, Self Sufficient or Student. Self Sufficients and Students must buy CSIs (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance) for themselves and all their dependants. Under EU law, you must not be a burden the UK's welfare state.

EU jobseekers are only allowed to be a jobseeker in the UK for 91 day in the entire 5 years for PR and that 91 days includes that first 3 months when they arrived.

 If you stay in the UK when you are not a "qualified person", then you are not in the UK lawfully: which also means you reset your 5 years to PR clock, back to zero. Under EU law, the UK can deport those who are not in the UK lawfully.

Lots and lots whi have not lived in the UK lawfully, have got caught out by Brexit as they will not make British citizenship before Brexit.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:21:29 AM by Sirius »

Offline -9intend0-

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 11:37:27 AM »
I truly appreciate all the honest and well thought out answers.

I've been trying to go into this with a good attitude, hence the seemingly foolish conviction.

I was really motivated to move after talking with a friend in the UK who was telling me that half a million people come in from the EU every year and how he felt that after the Brexit they wouldn't stop it, just limit it. I mentioned my plan and he thought it wouldn't be a problem.

Now I know he's not an expert on immigration law, but I thought, if that many people are coming in and on top of it all are getting housed and supported by the government (something I didn't intend on asking for) then how come I can't come in as a willing, working person? Why can't we all?

It just seems so odd that a person who wants to be part of a country and is willing to work, pay taxes, has no criminal history, etc, is not accepted, meanwhile there are natural born citizens who are leeches and those that come in from other countries and are the same. And that is a comment applicable to many countries not just the UK...

Anyway, I will keep moving forward with planning. I think work visas may be the next best thing.
My dad works in manufacturing with medical instruments (I've heard Sheffield has companies that do that)
I'm a teacher (well, almost. I'm getting my certification at the end of the year)
Both my sisters are willing to go into areas of study that would allow them to get work visas and they could get student visas before that...

Offline physicskate

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 12:47:17 PM »


if that many people are coming in and on top of it all are getting housed and supported by the government (something I didn't intend on asking for) then how come I can't come in as a willing, working person? Why can't we all?


That is completely erroneous!!! Whoever told you EU migrants were being housed and supported was either leading you down the garden path or very misinformed (alarmingly so!!). The UK is very anti-immigrant and this is the sort of hog-wash the Daily Mail tries to feed people! It seems ridiculous to me that if it sounds too good to be true, it generally isn't. Surely your statement doesn't pass the 'smell test?'

If you cannot come on the EU route, you would each have to qualify for a work visa in your own right if all of you are above 18. At present, for most roles, the employer has to prove no one else in the EU can do the job. No one knows what the immigration system will look like after Brexit.

What will you be qualified to teach? Some secondary subjects are currently on the shortage occupation list which means the employer would not have to prove no one else could do the job because it is a recognised shortage.
2004-2008: Student Visa
2008-2010: Tier 1 PSW
2010-2011: Tier 4
2011-2014: Tier 2
2013-2016: New Tier 2 (changed jobs)
16/12/15: SET (LR) successful! - It's been a long road...
12/05/16: Citizenship ceremony!

Offline -9intend0-

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 01:42:32 PM »
That is completely erroneous!!! Whoever told you EU migrants were being housed and supported was either leading you down the garden path or very misinformed (alarmingly so!!). The UK is very anti-immigrant and this is the sort of hog-wash the Daily Mail tries to feed people! It seems ridiculous to me that if it sounds too good to be true, it generally isn't. Surely your statement doesn't pass the 'smell test?'

If you cannot come on the EU route, you would each have to qualify for a work visa in your own right if all of you are above 18. At present, for most roles, the employer has to prove no one else in the EU can do the job. No one knows what the immigration system will look like after Brexit.

What will you be qualified to teach? Some secondary subjects are currently on the shortage occupation list which means the employer would not have to prove no one else could do the job because it is a recognised shortage.

Perhaps I was too naive? He's a great guy but he said it as a matter of fact, not in a way that would seem erroneous...

I will be certified to teach secondary maths.
But I wouldn't want to go without my family as we are very close.

It seems that going to a country not leaving the EU would make more sense (looking at you Ireland). *sigh*

There should be a citizenship exchange program. I'm sure I could find five Britons eager to live in America lol

But one niggle I still have is, how come you hear of people retiring and moving to other countries, UK included??

Online KFdancer

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 01:50:35 PM »
I did have a good laugh at your friend saying people come here and get housing.  He/she is definitely not in touch with the realities of immigration.

If you hear of people moving to the UK when they've retired, it was either before 2012 or they have heavily invested in a UK business (£1 million minimum), or hold UK or EU citizenship.  Different countries have different rules of course.  I'm American and would not have any route to bring my parents to the UK.  But if my UKC husband moved to the US, we would have options to bring his parents to the US.  Everywhere is different.

Offline Sirius

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2017, 05:08:17 PM »
I was really motivated to move after talking with a friend in the UK who was telling me that half a million people come in from the EU every year and how he felt that after the Brexit they wouldn't stop it, just limit it. I mentioned my plan and he thought it wouldn't be a problem.

Plus all the non-EEA citizens using EU laws and European Court of Justice Court rulings to live in the UK.

Lets see what the Conservatives manifesto says, as it is likely to say that on a Brexit, no more free movement , no more acceptance of the European Court of Justice Court rulings (the UK has already stated this bit), no single market and no customs union.

The UK used to have a visa for low to no skilled immigrants, called the Tier 3 visa, but then free movement happened.

The Foreign Secretary was talking about offering a visa based on the Tier 5 Youth Mobility visa, to EEA citizens. That Tier 5 visa is of limited numbers: only for those age 18s to 30 with no children: they can't bring their family with them; can't have public funds; the visa is only for up to 2 years and can't be extended; the visa doesn't lead to settlement: the applicants must show they have money to survive until they get a job.

Now I know he's not an expert on immigration law, but I thought, if that many people are coming in and on top of it all are getting housed and supported by the government

You are quite right, they did used to get housed in social housing as soon as they arrived, given full access to all UK benefits, free healthcare, and never had to work at all,  but the UK stopped it because of the huge numbers arriving.
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/existing-eea-migrants-at-risk-of-destitution-following-the-removal-of-housing-benefit/

and is still ending or reducing UK benefits by welfare reforms, sanctions for up to 3 years, working for welfare, all already agreed by parliament and on its way in from this year.

how come I can't come in as a willing, working person? Why can't we all?

Why does your country want visas? Why haven't they allowed free movement from Mexico?

If you look at how economics work, free trade and an over supply of workers arriving, drives wages down, which is not good for the citizens of that country and puts a strain on thing like the welfare state, healthcare, schools etc.. 1 in 4 of EEA citizens using free movement, moved to the UK, mainly to England.

Free movement is a massive burden to the rich  EEA countries. Switzerland has already voted to say they will restrict numbers of those using the EU route to their country and  will give the jobs to their citizens first. The EU refused to let them do that, then the UK voted to leave and the EU changed it's mind for Switzerland. But Switzerland has now withrawn it's long standing application to join the EU. Luxembourg already has a cap on the numbers they will take from other EEA countries and only if they have found a job before they arrive, but they are the only EU country allowed to do this.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 05:14:32 PM by Sirius »

Offline -9intend0-

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 05:11:59 PM »
Why does your country want visas? Why haven't they allowed free movement from Mexico?

If you look at how economics work, free trade and an over supply of workers arriving, drives wages down, which is not good for the citizens of that country and puts a strain on thing like the welfare state, healthcare, schools etc.. 1 in 4 of EEA citizens using free movement, moved to the UK, mainly to England.

Free movement is a massive burden to the rich  EEA countries. Switzerland has already voted to say they will restrict numbers of those using the EU route to their country and  will give the jobs to their citizens first. Luxembourg already has a cap on the numbers they will take from other EEA countries and only if they have found a job before they arrive.

I meant not free movement, but at least some legal avenue for a determined, hard working, non-criminal, beneficial member of society to emigrate to a country that isn't their own without resorting to marriage or illegal routes. But I digress...

Offline Sirius

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 05:40:20 PM »
It just seems so odd that a person who wants to be part of a country and is willing to work, pay taxes, has no criminal history, etc, is not accepted, meanwhile there are natural born citizens who are leeches and those that come in from other countries and are the same. And that is a comment applicable to many countries not just the UK...

Like other countries, the UK too wants skilled workers, which is why there are visa for those people.

However those "leeches" as you call them, are not mainly from the indigenous population. MAC and HMRC have done a good job in finding out the popular UK benefits claimed by those who were not a British citizen when they first applied for their NINo and these benefit claimants aren't just EEA citizens. In 2014, HMRC reporting that  5.1 billion pounds a year was being given to these people, just in the newly created benefit called Tax  Credit!. The UK then brought  in the 2 child limit for welfare claimants, in addition to the extensive welfare reforms coming in under the new laws, mainly from this year.

Other popular benefits that HMRC have shown to be a draw to the UK, have also changed or ended. The welfare cap per family came in; the two child limit for benefits claims: the Bereavement type benefits for years have now ended, as are Tax Credits from this year.

The UK government even announced in 2015, that Germany, Sweden and France will now have better benefits than the UK from 2017 and now Germany has just rushed in some benefit changes too.

But don’t worry, the indigenous population “leeches” are also going to be getting a swift kick up the backside too under these welfare reforms.  :)

Offline Sirius

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 05:52:07 PM »
I meant not free movement, but at least some legal avenue for a determined, hard working, non-criminal, beneficial member of society to emigrate to a country that isn't their own without resorting to marriage or illegal routes. But I digress...

That would be a visa.

Offline -9intend0-

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Re: Family of Five Preparing for the Big Move
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2017, 05:54:41 PM »
That would be a visa.

That would be very very difficult to get. If they let all laborers and not just skilled ones, with private insurance and required then to pay the same taxes and limit how much money they can send out of the country, I fail to see the issue