From Home Office re status of EU citizens in the UK

Had signed up for the email message system on UK's gvmt pages for EU citizens.  Received this message from them today:

Thank you for signing up to receive email updates regarding the status of EU citizens in the UK after we leave the European Union.

EU citizens make an invaluable contribution to our life in the UK and our first priority in the withdrawal negotiations will be to reach agreement about the rights of EU citizens living in the UK, and UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU. The negotiations begin on Monday, where we will do all we can to provide as much certainty as possible, as early as possible, for the EU citizens who have made the UK their home.

At this stage of the process, there is no need to take any action or apply for any documentation to confirm your status or right to be here.

These email updates will continue to ensure that you are made aware of any developments that might affect you, including the steps that you may need to take to confirm your status in the UK after we leave the EU.  In the meantime, you can visit Status of EU nationals in the UK: what you need to know for the latest information.

Thank you

 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know

Thanks Nan. Nothing new then.

It's disgusting that Germany (Merkel) refused point blank to sort this out last June and that these have been left in limbo for a year. This should not have been left to the talks. On that agenda behind the EU needing money it seems, even though the  EU have never managed to sign off on their books and there about 5 times more people using the EU Directive/court rulings to be in the UK, than there are Brits in the other EEA countries.

When these people are allowed to apply for citizenship, varies from country to county. i.e. Germany is 8 years, the UK is 6 years.

It looks like stage 1 is over and it seems to be,: we will give you x as part of the final UK/EU trade agreement. The brown paper envelope. Recently revealed was that the EU has a 203 billion annual  financial black hole, which they hoped would go away when Junker was given the job in 2014, but instead has increased rapidly.

Next stage is all those Brits using free movement/those using free movement or European Court of Justice Rulings to be in the UK and on what terms. And the NI border.

My guess is that countries like France and Poland, who have double digit unemployment and have always relied heavily on the UK to provide their citizens with jobs, education, healthcare, etc, will push for that to continue as long as possible.

It seems that money does talk

countries like France and Poland, who have double digit unemployment and have always relied heavily on the UK to provide their citizens with jobs, education, healthcare, etc,

France relies on the UK to provide their citizens with jobs, education, healthcare, etc?

Who knew?

Here's the real story of the day:

"Chancellor Philip Hammond has risked deepening a cabinet rift with Brexiteer ministers by demanding Britain maintain existing customs arrangements with Europe until a new “long-term” system is fixed."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-chancellor-philip-hammond-mansion-house-speech-eu-customs-arrangements-cabinet-rift-a7798586.html

Britain has hired New Zealand’s former trade head Crawford Falconer as chief trade negotiation adviser to manage the UK’s free trade deals once the country leaves the EU.
........................
He is a joint citizen of both the UK and New Zealand. Brexit negotiations start on Monday, while Mr Falconer will begin in his role later this summer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/06/16/uk-hires-top-new-zealand-trade-negotiator-head-post-brexit-deals/

Updated again today.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know

Did you get your text Nan?

Hi, sorry, didn't see this - not ignoring you! We did get an email message with the update, and I posted it elsewhere.

Now I'm just sitting here confused, morning java in hand.  We sent in our applications for a residents certificate for me and a residency card for my non-EEA dependent daughter, who is here on a valid (still, through October) family permit and, according to the regs, can stay once that expires.  We are applying for the card for her as she needs to be able to travel next year, and won't be able to get back into the country (with any certainty) without something official in her passport from the UK. Other than that, there's no need for her to have the card.

So, July 1st I mailed the packet - two packets in one envelope, two credit card auths, everything duplicated, with a note saying there were two in there - as per the instructions we were given. Tracking says it got there July 4.

Early July we heard daughter needed to physically present her passport to her Uni to verify her status.  So, about 14 days after I mailed it, we requested that it be returned. Received a confirmation number for the request.

Two weeks later we did not have the passport, put in a status update request. No response. Phoned the euro helpline and was told they wouldn't return it until the card was put into the passport (it's not actually a card, it's a sticker thing in the passport). We reported that to the Uni.

The next week her Uni said they could phone the govmt "on a back line" to confirm that she'd submitted the passport. We gave them the royal mail tracking info, they phoned, all is ok with the Uni - she can register on time.

Aug 9 got a confirming email that they had my application, it could take up to 6 months, got a tracking number.

Checked the online status page for updates daily (silly me).... nothing, nothing, nothing, then it said it said waiting for decision as of Aug 8.  Yesterday morning it said a decision has been made and that my packet was being dispatched back on Aug 18 - allow 10 working days.  Nothing has been debited from my bank account to pay for this.

So, for the next two weeks (or until it arrives) I'll be wondering:
1) why they haven't debited my bank account (I checked the scan I kept, all the info is correct - no transposed bank numbers);
2; is it just my application coming back, or both of ours? Daughter has not been contacted at all, no confirmation of application, no request for biometrics appointment (perhaps the fact that her family permit, with biometrics, is still valid means it's not required??)
3) what I've screwed up in the packet that would make them return it in so much more quickly than 6 months.

On the flip side, I'm hoping that the fact that her family permit was still active expedited everything through. But that's stretching credulity here... and of course, our apartment building's entry buzzer system is malfunctioning this week - nobody can buzz to let you know to let them in. Including the mailman.  Phoned that in over the weekend, and they say the repair guy won't be here until late this week. Wah.    Guess I'll go sit downstairs at 11:30 everyday and wait for the mailman.

Its super fun waiting for that RC isnt it? I had to wait for the RC so I could finally start working as they wouldn't take the FP in my passport even though it was valid.

It took them about 4 months for mine, although I requested my passport back and that came in a week. While its a bit of a pain keeping track of both things, I put the RC in a little clear zippered pouch to keep it clean and easier to travel with. Handy as this week I had to get my US passport renewed and I didn't have to worry about permits being lost etc.

You may want to look over at immigrationboards and see who else has applied at roughly they same time you did, similar problems, etc. Its summer so I am a bit surprised that it would come back that quickly but who knows, maybe someone forgot to run your card. I got a free brownie at Leon the other day because the gal forgot to ring it up 

Its super fun waiting for that RC isnt it? I had to wait for the RC so I could finally start working as they wouldn't take the FP in my passport even though it was valid.

It took them about 4 months for mine, although I requested my passport back and that came in a week. While its a bit of a pain keeping track of both things, I put the RC in a little clear zippered pouch to keep it clean and easier to travel with. Handy as this week I had to get my US passport renewed and I didn't have to worry about permits being lost etc.

You may want to look over at immigrationboards and see who else has applied at roughly they same time you did, similar problems, etc. Its summer so I am a bit surprised that it would come back that quickly but who knows, maybe someone forgot to run your card. I got a free brownie at Leon the other day because the gal forgot to ring it up 

Ok, so you are saying the residency card is an actual card, NOT a sticker in a passport? Wow, that is not what the person at the help desk told me.     I think I'd better phone again and ask what's going on if it's not here by next week, whatever "it" is that they are sending.

I applied as retired self-sufficient, and my daughter had to do a separate application for non-EEA dependent family member, both went in the same envelope.  We did ask for my daughter's passport back, then when it didn't arrive asked for a status, and have heard nothing since that request. It's been over a month now since we asked for it back and it's still not here. Since she's had no communication, we don't have a clue what's going on.  I got a confirmation email earlier this month that said they'd try to take care of my application within 6 months. So..... argh.

Its super fun waiting for that RC isnt it? I had to wait for the RC so I could finally start working as they wouldn't take the FP in my passport even though it was valid.

You are an Extended Family Member and therefore don't have any rights in the UK (or any other EEA country) on a FP.

You are different to Nan’s daughter, who the UK have allowed to enter the UK on a FP as a Direct Family Member even though she is over 21. You don’t have the same rights in the UK as Nan’s daughter does.


Direct Family Members have an automatic right under the EEA Regulations, to be with their EEA sponsor for as long as their sponsor is exercising treaty rights every day (this usually means being a “qualified person”). These DFMs don’t need an RC to be legally living and working in another member state.

Extended Family Members don’t have that automatic right to be with their EEA citizen under Free Movement. These must have an RC granted by that country and they don’t have to grant that. Some EEA countries would not let you live in their country, even as an EFM, as you are not married to your EEA sponsor, but the UK will grant RCs to those that can show they have lived together for at least 2 years "akin to marriage"..

Therefore, entering another EEA country on a FP does not give any rights for an Extended Family Member, until they are granted an RC by that country.  The FP is just a multi entry visit to that country. Other EEA countires only give FPs of 3 months, but the UK gives 6 months as that ties in with the 6 months the UK allows people to visit the UK. Other EU countries only allow people to visit for 3 months and they issue FPs for 3 months.

For your EEA citizen sponsor, he doesn't need a FP, but he can only visit the UK for 3 months, as stated in the EU's 2004 Directive. He must follow that 2004 Directive at all times to be lawfully in another member state. Your UK RC once granted, will only remain valid if your EEA sponsor follows that 2004 Directive everyday.

For the EFM, under EU laws, the RC application date does not grant any rights to the applicants, as it’s the  date the RC is granted by that country that gives those rights. You must have an RC to be allowed to live and work in the UK. It’s this not having this automatic right that a DFM has, which is why EFMs cannot appeal a refusal of an RC.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH! Our application materials were returned, said we had not paid the fee. Problem with credit card details, they said in the form letter.  I looked on the scanned docs and all the info is accurate and complete. SO, we have to re-submit it all again. Apparently they take checks, so I'll send checks this time so nobody can accidentally mis-key anything....   

On the good side, Daughter can now take her passport to her Uni in person and do her registration. As soon as that is done, we'll send it all back in again and wait another two months to hear if there are any problems. I am wondering if we should just send her FM application in, and not send my certificate ap in, as I'm actively looking for work and have to provide a passport to the Civil Service if selected.....

ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH! Our application materials were returned, said we had not paid the fee. Problem with credit card details, they said in the form letter.  I looked on the scanned docs and all the info is accurate and complete. SO, we have to re-submit it all again. Apparently they take checks, so I'll send checks this time so nobody can accidentally mis-key anything....   

Tell your credit card company that this payment is authorised by you, as sometimes it is their fault as they think it is a fraud payment. Even when told, some say they still have their payment refused.  Do UKVI still allow the Postal Orders that people can buy from the Post Office?

On the good side, Daughter can now take her passport to her Uni in person and do her registration.

It couldn't have worked out better. I still don't understand why the uni wouldn't take that before you sent off your applications!

As long as you are a qualified person and as a Self Sufficient, have CSI's for yourself and your daughter, your daughter is lawfully in the UK as your Direct Family Member. They granted her a FP as a DFM and nothing has changed, so should do the same again with an RC.

I am wondering if we should just send her FM application in, and not send my certificate ap in, as I'm actively looking for work and have to provide a passport to the Civil Service if selected.....

Jobseeking qualified person is not an easy one. Some EEA citizens have really been taking the pi$$ with that one to try to get the EU's "5 years for PR" and then British citizenship, so they have had to shut that abuse down.

If you look at the 2004 Directive, it allows 3 months in another country to visit and find work. That's 3 months to find a job and if not, the idea of free movement is to move to another EEA country to look for work.

Didn't the EEA Regulations the UK brought out in February 2017, say something like - only 91 days jobseeking allowed in the '5 years to PR' and that included the 90 the EU allowed them to visit? I’m not sure. BUT UKVI need total proof of that jobsearching, to count that time as a QP and for it not be classed as unlawfully living in the UK if you have passed your three months that the EU allows.

Most find it easier to sign on at the job centre even if they won't get paid any benefit money, as the staff there checks that the applicants really are looking for work for 35 hours a week and send them on courses etc. UKVI seem to be accepting that as their jobseeking time. However, the UK has a 3 month wait for that benefit when you arrive (rising to 2 years wait under the new welfare system) so I’m not sure if the job centre would allow you to “sign-on the dole”. You haven't been living in Ireland, so there will be differerent UK welfare rules for you.

Perhaps have another read of that document I linked before, on what the UK says is a qualified person and what evidence you would have to provide for them to grant you that as a jobseeking QP? Then see if it is better to keep your CSIs going and be a SS QP instead? Proof of being an SS QP, until a worker QP, might be easier?

I just rememebred that I read that the EEA citizens can using a checking service and keep their passports/get them back quickly, but that was just a remark in a post somewhere. It might be worth having an internet seach for/ asking at your local checking centre? NCS?? ksand, KFdancer or larrabee might know where to look for that information.

It was my bank visa debit card, Royal Bank of Scotland. Have had no trouble with them at all.  Probably should have used my USA card. Yes, they take postal money orders, or checks (saith the website). Perhaps a money order would be the way to go - no way to claim it hasn't cleared, etc....    Annoyingly, they stapled all the passport-sized photographs such that they are not usable when we resubmit the form, so we have to go get new ones taken. And they kept the rather nice professional folders we sent the materials to them in, but returned the outside envelope with everything else. Oy.

Yes, supposedly I can change status at any point as long as I was already in another status. I could use the passport checking service IF I was applying for a certificate as an employed person - down to Rutherglen or over to Edinburgh, pay the fee, hand them all the paperwork, they verify the passports and hand them back to us. Can't use it as a self-sufficient, nor can the daughter. She can't use it if I am not applying at the same time.

I was more thinking I'd need the passport in hand if given a job offer... the guidance on the job website says I have to be able to provide a valid passport if offered the job.

Or, perhaps we'll just have daughter apply and I will not. I don't need the certificate, and it will be invalid after Brexit anyway. She's just doing the RC so she can get back into the country and also find part-time work until then. My passport still has to go in with her application, but hopefully I can get it back quickly - I wouldn't bet on it, based on our experience with the "please return the passport" process we tried. (One request. Two weeks later a followup. A month later another followup. But perhaps since we were already in the toilet file they didn't bother. Never heard a peep from them until the docs were returned today.)

We're on to plan "I" as well. Apparently it may be possible to get her Irish citizenship due to "Irish associations" (aka, me).  It's a long shot, but worth the try.  Ireland will return her passport within ten days of receipt, if asked, we are told, and do the rest of the processing after that point. So we're gathering documentation together to apply to the Irish government. Then if things go south with the EEA route in the future, she'd have the Irish option (unless that evaporates as well - at that point I'd chalk it up to the will of the gods.).

Oh. When they returned our documents, they included the photo for some other poor applicant, who they are probably going to now turn down saying he didn't have enough photos included. I'm phoning the HO in the morning to ask if I should send the photo somewhere. It has the gent's name on the back.