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Topic: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page  (Read 1593 times)

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US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« on: October 26, 2017, 10:19:24 AM »
Possible tax reform to end US citizenship based taxation is covered today on the front page of the international edition of the Financial Times, and also in the Times. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-26/millions-of-u-s-expats-may-get-tax-relief-financial-times-says The Ways and Means Committee are considering it seriously now. Maybe this is some hope for those of us burdened by double compliance and FATCA related discrimination and hardship in the current outdated system. Please alert your representatives and ask them to support this important change.


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 11:36:03 AM »
Two additional sources for the complete article:

A shortened version from the Irish Times:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/us-expats-hope-for-lower-tax-bills-as-shake-up-seeks-to-end-levies-at-home-1.3268954

And the original, full article from the FT containing additional comments from Mark Mazur can be found on Google News (type "US expats given hope of lower tax bills" into google search, and expand "Top stories".)

"Mark Mazur, who was the top tax official in Barack Obama’s Treasury department, said he supported the change, arguing that it was necessary to address the “inequity” of an expat paying tax on the same income to both the US and a foreign government."


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 12:59:41 PM »
Thanks OAP! It's brilliant that this has been picked up by several papers. The comments on the FT article are terrific too.


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 07:42:43 PM »
Not to burst anyone's bubble, but the amount of tax that I owe to the IRS (like many people) has no effect on me because HMRC's is always greater.  So even if the IRS announces that I no longer have to pay US tax, that would not really change my tax bill.  Also, I doubt they will change the FBAR/8938 reporting requirements. 


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2017, 04:10:30 PM »
Not to burst anyone's bubble, but the amount of tax that I owe to the IRS (like many people) has no effect on me because HMRC's is always greater.  So even if the IRS announces that I no longer have to pay US tax, that would not really change my tax bill.  Also, I doubt they will change the FBAR/8938 reporting requirements.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just a cynical as the next person when it comes to the IRS/Department of the Treasury, but certainly the reason we have to file all this extra paperwork (FBAR/8938) is so the IRS can be sure they're getting everything they feel Congress has said they "deserve". If I'm no longer taxed just because I'm a U.S. citizen, then the IRS isn't entitled to any of my income (assuming it's all foreign based and I'm living abroad as well), so the purpose of those filings goes away. Oh, drat. It's only taken me to the end of that last sentence to accept that you're probably correct, because....terrorism, drug dealers, drug dealing terrorists. 

And you're right, I haven't paid a cent in U.S. taxes since I've been living abroad, and in fact, I make a tidy sum every year from the IRS due to the fact that I have children and am the only one doing paid work in my household, which is insane really. I don't like paying taxes in the UK, but I think it's only fair as I live here. I don't live in the U.S. and likely never will again, so the prospect not having to file extra paperwork, does make me happy even though I never paid anything anyway.

It's that extra paperwork that makes me think that once I'm off the child tax credit (or whatever it's called in the U.S.) gravy train, I will renounce my U.S. citizenship. I'm not a flag waving patriot, but I don't hate America and don't want to give up my citizenship, but as I get older and my finances get more complex (paying off the mortgage, hopefully more non-pension investments), I can totally see renunciation as  a viable option. These proposed reforms would really benefit me in the respect, so I'm all for them and anyone on this board should be contacting their Congressperson to voice their support.


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2017, 09:37:24 PM »
There is no TL:DR

Compliance with US tax is simple when the expat is working, earning below the FEIE limit, and has few UK financial accounts. A 1040, a 2555, and maybe a schedule B. If they are a US ‘Homelander’, ie: an American ‘temporarily’ living abroad with every intention of returning someday to the land of the free, filing makes sense. That includes those who have been here for decades but still intend to return to the US someday. No one would disagree with this. Only 18% of USCs filing a tax return from abroad owe any US tax and the figure is probably less for those in the UK. This type of individual probably represents the majority of Americans in the UK. And talk of renunciation makes absolutely no sense.

A problem starts developing when ‘temporarily’ turns into ‘forever’. A problem definitely exists for the Accidental American who has no ties, family or financial, to the US and they have no desire to ever live in the US (Yes, there are people who do not foster a dream of living in the land of milk and honey). For the long term permanent expat compliance with US taxation starts to become intrusive, particularly for financial stability. So, they do have an option to renounce.

Or do they? Do they still have vulnerable family in the US (parents, for example) that may require an extended period of assistance? What if they can’t afford to renounce? Not only because they lack sufficient funds, but also those who may have been successful (a good final salary pension, some cash in the bank, and a home they’ve owned in the Southeast for 20 years). They likewise cannot afford to renounce unless they ‘lose’ some assets or suffer financial annihilation. Stroke, Dementia, Alzheimer’s; does your NRA spouse know how to complete your US tax return if you are unable? The child who is mentally challenged? You can’t renounce unless you are of sound mind and can comprehend what you are undertaking. For some, US compliance is a trap they cannot escape from.

In the civilised world (that also happens to be the rest of the entire world) voting, the right to return to the homeland, and having a passport is not tied to paying ones tax to the homeland as an expat.

But the American ‘temporarily’ living in the UK with that simple tax return of 1040, 2555, and Sch. B has nothing to fear. They know what is required and there is no problem for them. Why should they be concerned about tax reform, or the desire not to have a US tax compliance obligation?

The current reform initiative is only in the preliminary stages. Nothing has been decided and anything may change, IF tax reform were to happen. So, don’t take this as anything other than uninformed ramblings, but if the USC has rental income from a US or UK property, or they own more than 10% of a UK business, it might be wise to pay some attention to the proposals. The section 121 exclusion may change from 2 years/5 years to 5 years/8 years. Again, nothing has been decided and reform may not happen. Many of us thought FATCA wouldn’t happen, and it did. Surely there would be some carve out for expats, but there wasn’t. Again, as of now, none of the proposals are solidified, and some of the above may have already been side lined (if the understanding of the unclarified proposals were even correctly understood in the first place).

The great thing about being subject to homelander taxation for expats is the constant knowledge that all rules could change at any time.

As for the RBT proposals of the original post, at present things are not looking particularly good, although there are amendments in the Senate Bill which may offer a TTFI structure for expats. As proposed, this would be great for those with few or no US financial assets. Attempt to understand what is being proposed, but what will happen, will happen. I dream of a last minute RBT, revenue positive as an offset, rider attached to the final Bill just prior to passage. There’s a certain satisfying symmetry after FATCA. 

A musing:
If TTFI or RBT do not happen with this reform, look for renunciations to rise (perhaps dramatically) up to each Embassies allowed quota. Also, (and tax professionals look away now!) there may an increase of those for who the “BS bucket is full” and who may simply just drop out, even if they have a compliance record with the IRS. Enough eventually becomes enough. IRS resources (or lack of) may inadvertently allow non-compliance to not be worth the effort for those who are not ‘Homelanders temporarily living in the UK’ and who have no assets or ties to the Homeland forever.

BTW, after the above articles of the original post appeared and talk was positive, a series of articles appeared related to the 3rd quarter list of renunciations (on course for another record breaking year). In this post truth era were narrative is more powerful than facts, they made it clear all US expats contemplating renouncing were the rich, jet-setting, yacht owning, tax evading layabouts who didn’t want to pay their fair share and were eager to quit the US (from the unfortunate name of one on the list, a Mr. Quiter). I want to know why all of you US expats on UK Yankee have been holding out regards your yachts and private jets and your true lifestyle? Come on, fess up! 




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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 09:53:27 PM »
There is no TL:DR

That's as far as I got before I laughed out loud and hit "Quote".  I just thought I'd let you know.

*goes back to read your post*
9/1/2013 - "fiancée" (marriage) visa issued
4/6/2013 - married (certificate issued same-day)
5/6/2013 - FLR(M)#1 in person -- approved!
8/1/2016 - FLR(M)#2 by post -- approved!
8/5/2018 - ILR in person -- approved!
22/11/2018 - Citizenship (online, with NDRS+JCAP) -- approved!
14/12/2018 - I became a British citizen.  :)


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 09:47:52 AM »
My Brit husband became a US citizen when we were still living there. He is fully aware of the requirement to file a US tax return, but if something happens to me, he won't have a clue where to start. Even pulling out hard copy of prior returns won't help, and frankly, he won't know who to turn to.

Every year I do the return, file the FBAR, and ask him to sign the 1040. He vaguely asks, but in truth doesn't want to know. while I don't think the IRS will come for him if the paperwork stops flowing, there's always that possibility.

I am all for any reform that helps those of us who diligently do what we must each year, but ultimately, it looks like it will be the same-old, same-old.

Didn't we fight a war a couple of hundred+ years back on the premise of 'no taxation without representation'? :-)
Married December 1992 (my 'old flame' whom I first met in the mid-70s)
1st move to UK - 1993 (Letter of Consent granted at British Embassy in Washington DC)
ILR - 1994 (1 year later - no fee way back then!)
Back to US in 2000
Returned to UK July 2011 (Spousal Visa/KOL endorsement)
ILR - September 2011
Application for naturalization submitted July 2014
Approval received 15-10-14; ceremony scheduled for 10 November!
Passport arrived 25 November 2014. Finally done!


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2017, 07:39:16 AM »
Absolutely, citizenship based taxation has got to go. It is horrible for yankees in the UK. I don’t want to renounce either; the thought is horrible and I am so angry at being forced to take such a drastic step just to live a normal financial life. Especially when my British friends living in the US are not being put in this position.

In the last few days Senator Heller has put some ‘place holders’ into the tax bill that are apparently for Territorial Taxation for Individuals (TTFI). Please could I ask everyone here who wants to see the end of citizenship based taxation to take an action at this point; even if it is small it will make a difference. There is a big push now and we need to make the most of this once in a lifetime opportunity. Things you can do:
1. Join in the FATCA Twitter Rally on Wednesday afternoons UK time. All day Wednesdays is a busy tweeting day for this group (search for #FATCA, retweet, reply to tweets, etc)
2. Visit American Expatriates on Facebook https://m.facebook.com/groups/334650186701060?refid=18&__tn__=C-R. Join the group or just read posts and comments if you’re not on FB.
3. Write an email to your rep and senators. Then follow up with a call. I used the Dems Abroad ‘campaign in a box’ http://www.democratsabroad.org/taxation_reform_campaign_in_a_box
This got a good response from my Congressman.

This is not a drill; we could realistically be looking at the permanent end of this awful double filing nightmare & FATCA & FBAR discrimination for our families and future UK Yanks. Thanks for reading! :)


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2017, 09:47:29 AM »
I see speculation is rife this may be the time Sen. Grassley pulls out his favourite repeal again - the repeal of FEIE (Form 2555) which was scored as revenue positive by the JTC. Revenue positive amendments will be valuable IF the reform legislation is to ever have a chance of passing. Look out for a last minute amendment a la his last minute 'stacking rule' which those filing 2555 must now live by. Oh well, there's always the more restrictive FTC which some of us long term permanent expats must use.

On what may be a positive note for some of the UKY crowd - the alcohol lobby has managed to get a reduction of the federal tax on mead into the Senate version.  :)  You can tell where Congressional priorities lie!

EDIT TO ADD:
So the US Senate favours reduced alcohol tax over the repeal of citizenship based taxation while the Scottish Parliament favours an increase on alcohol tax. That seems like a 'lose-lose' for the US expat living in Scotland IF US tax reform happens.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 10:18:01 AM by theOAP »


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Re: US expats given hope of lower tax bills - FT front page
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2017, 10:19:29 AM »
FEIE and FTC are the pathetic sugar coating on the capsule containing the fatal poison of citizenship based taxation. They are part of the problem as homelanders love to use them to continue justifying the US government’s abhorrent abuse of Americans living overseas.

I won’t be using the FTC anymore either way after this tax reform, because either they abolish citizenship based taxation or I renounce. I have had enough.


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