Author Topic: Brexit?  (Read 1283 times)

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Offline sonofasailor

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2017, 07:03:08 AM »
Brits have known this about the BBC for years.

As Americans we are used to honest and unbiased reporting.



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Offline sonofasailor

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2017, 07:28:26 AM »
And another thing, while it is true that the British may have invented fake news ( the Romans don't count) - we did something with it.
Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across - Sun Tzu

Offline lyonaria

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2017, 08:28:58 AM »
As Americans we are used to honest and unbiased reporting.

Haha. Oh this made me laugh. Did you type this with a straight face?

I wish we has honest unbiased reporting. As a Mass Comm major, the state of US news makes me sad.
The usual. American girl meets British guy. They fall into like, then into love. Then there was the big decision. The American traveled across the pond to join the Brit. And life was never the same again.

Offline jimbocz

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2017, 11:06:59 AM »
Personally, I am intrigued by the idea that Theresa May is actually playing 4d chess and with the subtle help of the DUP she has convinced the Europeans to change the date of something in our favour. 

Exactly what date was changed and how does it help the UK?

Offline F4mandolin

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2017, 11:08:01 AM »
Quite a few people thought they were going to get £350 million per week back from the EU because a bus told them so.

Then Nigel Farage said the bus was lying.
I always cringe when someone quotes the "Brexit bus" as promising £350 million a week to the NHS. The first time I saw that picture....I didn't come to the conclusion that they were promising £350 million to the NHS, just they could use some or all of it for the NHS. There is no promise stated on the bus. I also always take whatever a politician states as very iffy.....I NEVER take anything they say at face value (it sure would be nice if you could). Anybody who does is a fool.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 11:28:36 AM by F4mandolin »
Fred

Offline camoscato

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2017, 11:38:10 AM »
I always cringe when someone quotes the "Brexit bus" as promising £350 million a week to the NHS. The first time I saw that picture....I didn't come to the conclusion that they were promising £350 million to the NHS, just they could use some or all of it for the NHS. There is no promise stated on the bus.

Really? You cringe because everyone who saw that bus should've known it was a lie? Which part? The £350 million per week, or that they'd use it for the NHS? Or was it all a gigantic lie painted on the side of a bus and driven around the country for weeks?



I also always take whatever a politicians states as very iffy.....I NEVER take anything they say at face value (it sure would be nice if you could). Anybody who does is a fool.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, to hear you cast aspersions on the integrity of Nigel Farage. If the man said we were going to get back £18.2 billion per year from the EU and use it to fund the NHS, then that's what he meant! I mean, nearly 17 1/2 million people cast their vote to leave the EU based in part on what this man was saying, so his word should have been above reproach, shouldn't it?

Or is the truth too much to ask for when we're debating important issues?

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Offline sonofasailor

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 11:42:50 AM »
Today:

Q: Did the government undertake an assessment of leaving the customs union before the cabinet took that decision?

Davis: Not a quantitative one, no.



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Offline jimbocz

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 11:46:36 AM »
I forgot, what exactly did that bunch of hucksters say about the divorce payment?  Did that even come up?  Other than Boris saying that they could go whistle for it? 

Offline F4mandolin

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 11:56:20 AM »
Really? You cringe because everyone who saw that bus should've known it was a lie? Which part? The £350 million per week, or that they'd use it for the NHS? Or was it all a gigantic lie painted on the side of a bus and driven around the country for weeks?
Read the side of the bus. Think for a second. Then.....tell me where it states that the £350M will be given to the NHS? All it states is that is could be used for that. As a reasoning person....I thought about it from both sides..... As I already stated, the first time I saw this picture....I did NOT jump to the conclusion that they were promising all that money to the NHS.....because it does not state that. I took it to mean that at least some of it could be used to help the NHS. It does not state what you are claiming no matter how hard you want it to.


I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, to hear you cast aspersions on the integrity of Nigel Farage. If the man said we were going to get back £18.2 billion per year from the EU and use it to fund the NHS, then that's what he meant! I mean, nearly 17 1/2 million people cast their vote to leave the EU based in part on what this man was saying, so his word should have been above reproach, shouldn't it?

Or is the truth too much to ask for when we're debating important issues?
The decision (and it was a decision, that's how voting works) was not based on one issue. Nobody I have talked to says they voted for Brexit for one reason......it was a number of reasons. Claiming that it was all for one reason for 17 million people is not true.
Fred

Offline camoscato

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2017, 12:11:58 PM »
Read the side of the bus. Think for a second. Then.....tell me where it states that the £350M will be given to the NHS? All it states is that is could be used for that. As a reasoning person....I thought about it from both sides..... As I already stated, the first time I saw this picture....I did NOT jump to the conclusion that they were promising all that money to the NHS.....because it does not state that. I took it to mean that at least some of it could be used to help the NHS. It does not state what you are claiming no matter how hard you want it to.

"We send the EU £350 million a week let's fund our NHS instead"

[sarcasm]You know, Fred, you're right. There's so much ambiguity in that statement it could mean anything, really.[/sarcasm]

You ought to work for a PR company.

The decision (and it was a decision, that's how voting works) was not based on one issue. Nobody I have talked to says they voted for Brexit for one reason......it was a number of reasons. Claiming that it was all for one reason for 17 million people is not true.

I didn't say it was all for one reason. I said "17 1/2 million people cast their vote to leave the EU based in part on what this man was saying..."

But thank you for the explanation of how voting works.
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Offline F4mandolin

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2017, 12:22:45 PM »
I didn't say it was all for one reason. I said "17 1/2 million people cast their vote to leave the EU based in part on what this man was saying..." But if you look at it another way.....almost that many people voted to Remain based "in part" to the exaggerations of immediate doom that haven't (at least not yet) happened. You don't seem to be able to look at things from two different viewpoints. Both sides spoke crap.....you are focusing on only one view as the truth(Trump-like?). It's almost never that simple. 

But thank you for the explanation of how voting works. Anytime, it's pretty simple.
Fred

Offline jimbocz

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2017, 12:50:56 PM »
I reject your "One side is as bad as the other " argument.  Of course the doom hasn't happened yet, because we haven't left yet!  All of the doom filled prophecies  that could have happened before we left are happening right on schedule.  My biggest client has opened an office in Amsterdam and will most likely move there if the city cannot access the EU after Brexit.  That's not some academic doom to other people, that's a problem for me.

As far as I am concerned, the negotiations are proceeding exactly as everyone knew they would.  Even if the tories had been able to present a coherent option, there simply wasn't anything that the EU was going to give them that is not worse than what we have now.  Norway was the best we could have hoped for and even that is an absolutely horrible deal. The only thing I didn't predict was that the tories would be so incompetent that they can't even negotiate at all. 

Offline camoscato

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2017, 12:59:05 PM »
You don't seem to be able to look at things from two different viewpoints. Both sides spoke crap.....you are focusing on only one view as the truth(Trump-like?). It's almost never that simple. 

I can see both sides of the leave/remain argument, and have had enough conversations with people on both sides (and lived long enough) to know that nothing is simple, and people have a wide variety of reasons for believing what they believe.

I disagree, though, with adopting the world view that you should believe everything a politician says is "iffy" because they're probably not telling the truth. I'm not naive enough to think they're going to tell the truth. Instead, I'd like for them to be held to account when they lie.
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Offline jimbocz

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2017, 01:27:01 PM »
Here's the real question : Once we find out that Trump colluded with the Russians, what do we do with the Trump voters?  There's certainly not two sides there where I can see a bit of sense in both sides, there's wrong and there's right.  I believe we should have a media campaign to shame Trump voters into not voting again until they fix their stupid.  Maybe we could have a power point Web presentation about how to think that Republicans and Trump voters would be required to complete, like the fire training at work.

Offline F4mandolin

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Re: Brexit?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2017, 01:59:45 PM »
I reject your "One side is as bad as the other " argument.  Of course the doom hasn't happened yet, because we haven't left yet!  All of the doom filled prophecies  that could have happened before we left are happening right on schedule.  My biggest client has opened an office in Amsterdam and will most likely move there if the city cannot access the EU after Brexit.  That's not some academic doom to other people, that's a problem for me.
Here's a quote directly from George Osborne....
Publishing Treasury analysis, he said a Leave vote would cause an "immediate and profound" economic shock, with growth between 3% and 6% lower.
I can cherry pick a bunch of these types of info nuggets......about what would happen immediately after a Leave vote. Most haven't happened....

You statement (in following post) that once Trump is found guilty of collusion I find a bit scary. I hope you are right though.....but I'm not going to condemn the guy unless he has been proven to have done so. That's wrong.....(but I can hope you are right). Your general attitude towards Trump supporters is a bit horrible as well. I don't understand their amazing ability to ignore Trumps behaviour.....but jeez....they have their right to their opinions without being shot.

I guess I must come across as a Brexit supporter. I'm not. I would have voted Remain if I had been able to vote. My wife did vote Leave. What I object to are people who know that everybody who voted Leave is wrong and they are right. I have no idea how things will turn out........anybody who says they know are just spitting into the wind. If Brexit happens....I'll make the best of it. If it doesn't happen...I'll make the best of it. Although....for the sake of democracy.....ignoring a vote because the people who didn't win don't like it is really really scary. (Brexit or Trump)
Fred