Brexit?

What I object to are people who know that everybody who voted Leave is wrong and they are right.

"Know" in what sense? I'm in favor of the free movement of people, because I want the option to someday move to Spain, or for my kids to someday live and work in Italy or Germany or wherever they'd like. So in that sense I "know" the leave vote is wrong, and that's not spitting into the wind, that's a fact of the way things are going to be if the free movement of people is abandoned as a result of Brexit.

If Brexit happens....I'll make the best of it. If it doesn't happen...I'll make the best of it.

What do you believe in, Fred?

You ought to work for a PR company.

Hey now. PR isn't supposed to be like that. It's more advertising or marketing. PR is about telling the truth in the best light possible. Marketing/Advertising can be full of crap!

Yes, that stupid bus doesn't say that they were going to give the money to the NHS, but it sure was written to sound like that's what we were going to do. That damn bus is why my MIL voted leave. And I knew it for a lie. But people believe what they want to believe.

"Know" in what sense? I'm in favor of the free movement of people, because I want the option to someday move to Spain, or for my kids to someday live and work in Italy or Germany or wherever they'd like. So in that sense I "know" the leave vote is wrong, and that's not spitting into the wind, that's a fact of the way things are going to be if the free movement of people is abandoned as a result of Brexit.

What do you believe in, Fred?

What do I believe in? As far as Brexit I hope.....don't get me going on organised religion. I'm not in favour of uncontrolled immigration. I don't see any issues with a fairly lenient immigration policy though. I believe that a country should have the right to set their own immigration regulations.....and that certainly won't fit with the EU regulations. I used an example a year or so ago of what "could" go wrong with a completely open immigration policy.....now remember, this is totally crazy talk.....what if for some reason a country like Germany cranks out a new industrial business.......and everybody in the EU who wants a job goes zooming to Germany to try and get hold of this amazing new job market. Germany then needs to build tons of new housing/hospitals/schools etc etc. Then.....shazzam! Italy is where the jobs are (or better health care, whatever). Everybody goes zooming to Italy and they have issues with tons of extra people and the issues that follow. Germany now has a bunch of things that they no longer need....Italy is then in a state of panic. I LIKE immigration......and a pretty reasonable amount of it. But uncontrolled? Nope. My wife's main reason for voting Leave was she really really doesn't like the mystical people in Brussels deciding the little things that happen here in the UK. Immigration is not an issue to her......and not much to me. I still think that Brexit came down to Have's and Have-not's. The area's where there were booming jobs, and areas where there were more jobs for young folks are where people were happy with the EU. It's the same thing that has always been true......if people have good paying jobs etc they are happier. The areas of the UK where there was higher unemployment, lower pay, feelings of being ignored by London voted for change. I don't blame them for doing so. I don't blame the Trump supporters for being desperate for a change to the US political system.....I can understand their frustration with the slimy political system. I think they're nuts to still believe Trump is the right guy (like jimbocz)....but I will stick up for their right to try to make a change. People who have a view that is different from mine doesn't make them bad people.....or even wrong......sometimes I just don't understand how people come to a completely different conclusion with the same information that I am looking at......but people do. I can live with that since they have the right to do so. I still come back to these simple minded thoughts......nobody knows for sure what is going to happen with Brexit. I can see it going either way.....or even a bit of so-so down the middle. I don't know. When I hear people who state they KNOW that they have the answers......my dandruff gets ruffled. I find that 50% of the time......they are wrong.

Something that I also think about occasionally. When the UK voted to join the EU, would those people have voted to join if they could see what the EU has turned into? I doubt it. It's becoming like a bad sci-fi movie where the super duper oppressive company wants to make everybody toe the line for the sake of the company. There are good things with the EU.....but I think they are sticking their noses into too many things, too quickly for people to adjust to them. Like immigration.......a nice steady amount of immigration people can deal with......a large amount makes people uncomfortable and they fight it.

Won't your kids be able to get jobs in other countries if there are some immigration controls? A worry for some people is they wouldn't be able to retire to Spain (or wherever).....they can, just not quite as easy.

Oh well......enough mindless rambling. Good thing I haven't had a beer.....yet. Dr appointment in an hour.......or this could turn into an epic rant.

[quote author=F4mandolin link=topic=92309.msg1208825#msg1208825
Something that I also think about occasionally. When the UK voted to join the EU, would those people have voted to join if they could see what the EU has turned into?

I was just old enough to vote when we were asked if we wanted to join the Common Market.  Nowhere did it say we were heading for "the United States of Europe."

I now just want the powers that be to get on with what the people voted for.

But people believe what they want to believe.

Yep. But it still isn't a lie. Iffffff Brexit happens, the Govt could still use some of that money for the NHS.....it's certainly what a lot of people would like to have happen(including me). Coulda shoulda woulda etc etc.......I'll believe it when I see it.

I totally don't see a problem with immigration within the EU.  It's just the same as people moving from state to state in the US.  It can bring up problems but it's easily handled. 

I really disagree with you guys when it comes to accepting the viewpoint of people who voted differently.  Brexit is not the same as Trump.  Okay, both votes were marked by outrageous lies and Facebook manipulation of the vote by Russians, but I can accept a person who has a different opinion on Brexit.

For me, the Presidential election was a straight up vote for or against racism, corruption and *bleep* grabbing.  I don't care what your excuse, you vote for the racist, you are wrong.  At some point you have to stand up and say all you people are wrong, stupid and /or evil.  Even if it's %49 of your country and some of your family. 

I'm not talking about shooting anyone though, just manipulating them into not voting until they get smarter.  Maybe we could force Facebook to run adds that voting causes aids.

As far as giving Trump the benefit of the doubt, I am afraid we are way past that.  He admitted obstruction of justice serious enough to warrant impeachment already.  The rest is just arguing over details. 

As far as giving Trump the benefit of the doubt, I am afraid we are way past that.  He admitted obstruction of justice serious enough to warrant impeachment already.  The rest is just arguing over details.

I'm agreeing here with you.....but I won't line him up for execution until there is a verdict stating so. But even then I will be surprised if he gets the heave-ho. Politics is getting even more Us against Them and the ranks will pull together to blur things until nobody does anything. There aren't too many major politicians in either country that would be in their job if people knew what they were really doing.

Yep. But it still isn't a lie. Iffffff Brexit happens, the Govt could still use some of that money for the NHS.

I hate to break it to you, Fred, but they were lying. There's not going to be any £350 million per week, not for the NHS, not for anything else. Farage already said this on ITV the day after the vote.

I hate to break it to you, Fred, but they were lying. There's not going to be any £350 million per week, not for the NHS, not for anything else. Farage already said this on ITV the day after the vote.

Hey, I'm not going to stick up for Farage. All I'm saying......what was on the side of that bus was a slick campaign statement......that really didn't say anything.....something I noticed immediately. They left room for interpretation ......likely on purpose. Anybody who took that statement to mean that they WERE going to give £350m a week to the NHS was delusional and silly enough to believe what politicians say. But I notice......the point of view that you keep bringing up is how horrible the Leave people were. You move quickly on from how rediculous the statements from the Remain folks were. How many times did they start their statements with the purpose of scaring the crap out of people with "If you vote Leave.....the economy could drop 20%"(made this up, no idea of the number).....all their statements had the same crappy comments that didn't actually hold them to anything......this could happen....this might happen.... When people want to make other people see their way......they tend to point out the "facts" that support their way of thinking......which is why Republicans like to watch Fox....Dems like to watch MSNBC. I have constantly stated that both sides ran a terrible campaign......both sides gave misleading statements.....I would like to think I am able to see through most of them (because I don't believe any of them....I just assume they are lying to me...unfortunately, I'm usually right).

When we were back in the US and I was voting for local elections. I had no idea who these people were. The info they gave out was next to worthless. My fall back plan......vote for the female. The guys have screwed things up for so long that things could only get better with the ladies in charge. 

Yep. But it still isn't a lie. Iffffff Brexit happens, the Govt could still use some of that money for the NHS.....it's certainly what a lot of people would like to have happen(including me). Coulda shoulda woulda etc etc.......I'll believe it when I see it.

It says two phrases that they say aren't related to each other at all. If that's true, then why are they right next to each other on a giant bus if they arent related? They KNEW people would take it wrong and they still did it. Any PR person worth their salt would tell you that's wrong. They wanted to completely mislead people and they did. They're as*hats.
They misled people and I'm sure people feel lied to.

It says two phrases that they say aren't related to each other at all. If that's true, then why are they right next to each other on a giant bus if they arent related? They KNEW people would take it wrong and they still did it. Any PR person worth their salt would tell you that's wrong. They wanted to completely mislead people and they did. They're as*hats.
They misled people and I'm sure people feel lied to.

Yes.....I agree with everything you said. But I still come back to why people here keep pointing out the horrible things that the Leave side did.....and not the Remain side. It's not fair.

I completely disagree. The Leave campaign had absolutely no plan, and no ideas on what was actually going to happen after Brexit. The only information they gave is what the UK pays to the EU, how The UK needs to be Sovereign again, and playing into people's xenophobia and anti-immigration.

At least the Remain people did research, and ran scenarios to see what could happen. I can not for the life of me remember the correct term for what I mean, it's something they do with economic data... this is going to bug me.

Brexit hasn't happened yet. So what they said could happen... isn't even going to happen until Brexit actually occurs or the terms are finalized. My bet is We start seeing it on the latter. We are already seeing a slowdown in many sectors as people wait to see how everything is going to fall out.

I completely disagree. The Leave campaign had absolutely no plan, and no ideas on what was actually going to happen after Brexit. The only information they gave is what the UK pays to the EU, how The UK needs to be Sovereign again, and playing into people's xenophobia and anti-immigration.

At least the Remain people did research, and ran scenarios to see what could happen. I can not for the life of me remember the correct term for what I mean, it's something they do with economic data... this is going to bug me.

Brexit hasn't happened yet. So what they said could happen... isn't even going to happen until Brexit actually occurs or the terms are finalized. My bet is We start seeing it on the latter. We are already seeing a slowdown in many sectors as people wait to see how everything is going to fall out.

Yep.....a slowdown is what was stated as being what would likely happen. Even a few years. After that.....who knows?

How's that research that the Remain folks did turn out? So far....almost nothing has gone as predicted.

Again.....I will state......and likely nobody will take notice since they are too busy trying to make the Brexit folks out to be horribly wrong (which they may be.....who knows?)......I was all for Remain. But......this EU state is NOT what the UK voted for in 1975........