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Topic: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.  (Read 18964 times)

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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2019, 05:08:37 PM »
As someone who has been in a UK-US relationship for 16 years and lives in the US, it's pretty heartbreaking what's happening before my eyes. For a while I saw definite benefits to moving to the UK (NHS, strong currency, better work-life balance, better quality of life and food, access to Europe, etc.) but I don't think any of these things are guaranteed anymore. I can't believe the direction things are headed.
Believe me, I've been desperate to find one reason why it makes more sense to live in the UK than the US, but right now I can't find a single one. Nothing about the UK is worth the stress of the immigration process, and the worries about arriving with zero credit, fewer job prospects and a severe cut in income. Sure, it's beautiful and charming in places, but it's not like you can enjoy that much when you can't make ends meet.

I'm sure it would be different if I didn't already have a settled life in the US and could come over with all my worldly possessions in a suitcase. In many ways, I wish I moved back years ago when I had less to worry about, and before they tightened up immigration laws.

Hi morecoffee!  :) That must make things a lot easier if you're no longer feeling a pull to the UK.. no need to force it if things are working well for you in the US, just enjoy what you have right now.  :)


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2019, 05:14:32 PM »
Hi morecoffee!  :) That must make things a lot easier if you're no longer feeling a pull to the UK.. no need to force it if things are working well for you in the US, just enjoy what you have right now.  :)

Hi, larrabee.  :) Definitely a lot less stressed now after accepting the reality.  For now, somewhat regular visits are good enough for me. A lot cheaper too. :)  :D
Plans on hold 'cuz Brexit


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2019, 06:36:54 PM »

I just can't figure out the salary thing.  You would think the invisible hand of the market would apply a correction, but it has not.  Wages for everyone are ridiculously low.  Many people's pay (my wife included, and almost me) are making roughly the same pay as 10 years ago, and costs have soared since then. 

I can't believe it's some vast conspiracy to keep everyone's wages low for 10 years except for the %1 whose wealth has increased dramatically, but that seems to be the result. 


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2019, 09:19:54 PM »
I just can't figure out the salary thing.  You would think the invisible hand of the market would apply a correction, but it has not.  Wages for everyone are ridiculously low.  Many people's pay (my wife included, and almost me) are making roughly the same pay as 10 years ago, and costs have soared since then. 

I can't believe it's some vast conspiracy to keep everyone's wages low for 10 years except for the %1 whose wealth has increased dramatically, but that seems to be the result.
I work in retail pharmacy. I started in just the retail side and I was shocked to find out that the ladies that have worked there for 35+ years are making the same rate of pay as the new hires. How is that even possible?

At least by moving into the pharmacy side and completing training and earning qualifications I can move up the pay ladder and have an opportunity to move into the NHS or GP practices in the future. But it is still a miserable rate of pay. Hell, my early 20's children make more money than I do and they are in retail and pharmacy as well.

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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #124 on: October 31, 2019, 09:03:32 AM »

I find it difficult to compare with wages in the US since I haven't worked there for 20+ years.  I wonder if the same thing is happening?


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #125 on: October 31, 2019, 09:27:20 AM »
They weren't as of when we left in 2017.


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2019, 09:30:50 AM »
I find it difficult to compare with wages in the US since I haven't worked there for 20+ years.  I wonder if the same thing is happening?
No definitely not. Places are drastically increasing minimum wage, and over about 6 years I was able to increase my own wages from <30k to 50k+ with hard work and intelligence, and luck. That would not happen here without lots of changing companies. Competitive wages are needed to keep employees, and cost of living raises are standard most places of 2-3%. There is also often a maximum by band of the role (so that if youre there 30 years you don't end up making huge sums on an entry level job).

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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #127 on: October 31, 2019, 10:21:58 AM »
Yeah, very sadly...

The good bits about the UK were  things like if you get stranded abroad by a major travel company collapse the government would fly you home. (Like you'd ever see that in the USA! If you did, you'd have to sign a promissory note to pay for the air fare.) There seems to be some sort of feeling that the collective country needs to take care of its people abroad.

You have the NHS if you become ill, although from our experiences with it the NHS is pretty much functioning as did Medicaid in the States - bare-bones, long waits, restrictions on what they could do or prescribe, etc., but decent basic care. Probably better for true emergencies, as long as it's not anything too exotic that's wrong with you.

The definition of  "homeless" here is not what it is in the States. (Here it apparently means you have no permanent home to live in. In the USA it means the equivalent of sleeping rough.) And the UK version of it is not nearly as widespread as in the USA, so if something truly ghastly happened and one lost their ability to work, it's way more likely here that they would not end up sleeping on a park bench, and dying of an untreated illness, here.

And it's a truly beautiful country (at least the parts we frequent).

There's a lot of competition among the various utility companies so prices for phones, internet, gas, electric, etc., are lower than in the States - and you have options if you don't like the company. You don't see that often in the USA.

Housing is relatively cheap (compared to what we were used to).

Food safety (as in restrictions on GMO, additives, etc.) is good here.  As is the required care of the animals in the food chain.

There is a decent public transit system here in the larger cities and cross-country. (Of course, that's comparing with what we've dealt with in the USA, which tends to be poor to absent entirely.)

On the other hand, there is an entrenched "we've always done it like that" or "that's the way it's done" mindset here that just drives me freaking up a wall.

We've encountered a weird "you can't be better than us" sort of thing. We pay extra to live in a good neighborhood with minimal crime and good services. Some of the Daughter's ex-co-workers kind of jibed her with "oooh, posh" in a disparaging way when she said where she lives. (It's not posh by my standards, for sure. But nice enough.) Like she's overstepping her "place". (She put them in theirs rather summarily when they said that sort of thing.) There's a sort of "we're lower working class, not very educated,  poor, belligerent, and proud of all that" mindset in a portion of the population here. And they try to smack down anyone who tries to exceed the boundaries. But that might just be a Glasgow thing.

And the lack of opportunity for the Daughter. Brexit is about to make that worse - she will no longer be able to compete for jobs in the EU on a level playing field with other EU candidates. So that perk is evaporating. it does seem as if the Daughter will need to go back to the USA to be able to build a decent career and get her future pension sorted out.

The  pay here is abysmal (excepting the usual high-skill/professional fields), and what they ask you to do for it isn't much better. The most the Daughter could hope to get here, now with three degrees, would be less than she was earning ten years ago in the States in the temporary administrative services (typist/receptionist) pool with no degrees, adjusted for time. I was earning three times in the States what I could earn here for a similar job, based on 20+ years' experience.

The education system does not seem to be on a par with what we experienced in the USA. Incoming freshmen to the university here are not anywhere nearly as well-prepared or well-rounded, and the university programs are not as rigorous. (Again, this is only coming from our experience here.)  It's lovely that higher education is way less expensive here, but unless you intend to stay here I'm not sure it's going to put you on the same level as someone with credentials from the USA. (This is, of course, excepting the usual bit about Oxford, etc., where connections and institutional reputation carry you.)

A lot (by no means all) of people have a sort of passive thing going - they wait for things to be done for them. They seem to assume the council or the government will sort "things" out. I don't know how to explain it, really. It's kind of the downside to the "hive" mentality. They are supposed to do their bit and then others are supposed to do their bits and never the twain shall meet.  Example - after that horrible tower block fire I phoned our landlord and asked about installing a temporary emergency escape ladder (one of those chain ones you throw out a window to hang down the side of the building) because there was only one stairwell for our block of flats. Which would undoubtedly serve as a chimney. The response was that they thought the idea absurd. If the building was on fire we should just wait in our flat until the  fire brigade showed up to rescue us.  (Ummmm, no!) And it turned out that the fire alarm system was not connected to the fire department or any monitoring service, so if we heard the alarm we were to phone the fire department. (Say what???)

There seems to be a lot of interference by the State in people's lives. Take, for instance, the brain damaged child who the NHS decided had no quality of life and should be unplugged and let die. The parents wanted to take her to Italy for care, and had it lined up, and they had to fight "the authorities" tooth and nail to be able to do that - at their own expense.

People I've talked to seem to expect the school system and teachers to be doing more of what I expect a child's parent(s) should be doing. They send the kid off and then wash their hands of their upbringing, sort of. It's... odd.

Overall, I don't know how to describe it exactly. I get a sense of... stagnation. With twinges of "the class system is still alive and functioning". I have had conversations with persons of various social standings here and I do see a marked difference between the expectations and daily realities of the haves vs the have-nots.  I had plenty of dealings with both in the USA, don't get me wrong. But here there's more of a sense of obliviousness - the people in each sphere seem to function unaware, except around the edges, of the reality of the other one. And rather than, as in the USA, the sense that if you work hard and reach you can better yourself and your position, there's a bit more of "who do you think you are, better than the rest of us?" kinda put down if someone tries to improve their lot in life. It's as if they've just given up. Or it never occurs to them to try.  (Caveat, the sample size of my contacts is not large, and so I have to generalize heavily.)

And then there's the governments comparison. Which is heartburn-inducing, so I won't.  ;D

So, which is "better"? Define better...?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 02:12:21 PM by Nan D. »


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #128 on: October 31, 2019, 11:51:43 AM »
I find it difficult to compare with wages in the US since I haven't worked there for 20+ years.  I wonder if the same thing is happening?


In my family’s experience, my husband was a comfortable six-figure income earner in the UK in the telecoms field. The 2000 Telecoms crash put an end to that and we ended up having to leave the UK with US$75 in 2004.

It took nearly a year for my husband to get a green card and a new job and it paid under $50K and was in Chicago. We (myself and three kids) lived in El Paso, Texas with my father and the husband stayed until he could improve his prospects. He ended up moving up within three months to a better opportunity in Austin and we all moved there together.

That job lasted 18 months but the company was bought out and we had to move to Atlanta. His job was better paid by a whopping $5K but there was little choice in the sector so he took it. That job lasted a year.

We moved to Houston in 2008 and at that time, Houston was quite inexpensive to live and the wages decent. He earned around $65K (still a far cry from his UK wages) but we hoped things would improve. They didn’t. He didn’t get a pay rise for EIGHT years! When there was little work in his field around, he had no choice but to stay. He did self-fund training opportunities; created his own job from a telecoms technician to a “systems architect” and developed skills to become a “sales system architect” on his own for the same shitty pay. In those years, the cost of living completely shot up and that wage didn’t go far.

He finally moved to a new job in 2016 and he was finally earning $85K and with added commissions put his earnings back in line to his UK income. He felt as though he was finally being rewarded for his initiative and self-motivation but he was somewhat uneasy. All those years (from 1987 to 2017) in the industry gave him a perspective of the existing companies and he simply did not trust the company he was with and felt that they were not as prosperous as they led others to believe. He was right and was let go after one year while the company “restructured”.

He looked earnestly for another opportunity but the pay was back to $65K everywhere as we were willing to move around again but it simply didn’t seem worth it. So, in 2017, he “retired” from the telecoms industry and started his own business as a professional photographer.

He earns what he has always wanted to earn and has truly blown my mind at his drive. Currently, we are paying back our savings and trying to put ourselves back into financial solid ground due to previous low-pay and unemployment but we keep getting knocked back with very high taxes and ever-increasing health insurance costs that is truly eating up a substantial amount of our profits. He would love to restructure his business and start hiring employees but this has kept us from doing better. It’s a never-ending task.

My sister and several cousins live in Anchorage, Austin, Charlotte, Denver and can tell you that their wages have been stagnant for at least a decade and their cost of living has doubled. I read today that 48% of Houstonians and Austinites and 50% of San Antonians are paying far more than 30% of their wages on housing and so many are paying closer to 50%.

Personally, I’m over living here.


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #129 on: October 31, 2019, 02:46:12 PM »
There seems to be a lot of interference by the State in people's lives. Take, for instance, the brain damaged child who the NHS decided had no quality of life and should be unplugged and let die. The parents wanted to take her to Italy for care, and had it lined up, and they had to fight "the authorities" tooth and nail to be able to do that - at their own expense.

I saw that as well, and couldn't figure out why the NHS was standing in the way.  It wasn't like Charlie Gard, where the kid was suffering and treatment in Italy was only going to prolong the pain. 

At least the courts wasted no time in telling the NHS to mind it's own business and let the parents do what they want.   

Off topic:
My kid went to the hospital to have two teeth extracted.  The care was fine,  bordering on excellent.  We didn't have to wait too long and the whole thing was done during half term so he didn't even miss school.  No complaints here.


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #130 on: October 31, 2019, 02:54:22 PM »

In my family’s experience, my husband was a comfortable six-figure income earner in the UK in the telecoms field. The 2000 Telecoms crash put an end to that and we ended up having to leave the UK with US$75 in 2004.

It took nearly a year for my husband to get a green card and a new job and it paid under $50K and was in Chicago. We (myself and three kids) lived in El Paso, Texas with my father and the husband stayed until he could improve his prospects. He ended up moving up within three months to a better opportunity in Austin and we all moved there together.

That job lasted 18 months but the company was bought out and we had to move to Atlanta. His job was better paid by a whopping $5K but there was little choice in the sector so he took it. That job lasted a year.

We moved to Houston in 2008 and at that time, Houston was quite inexpensive to live and the wages decent. He earned around $65K (still a far cry from his UK wages) but we hoped things would improve. They didn’t. He didn’t get a pay rise for EIGHT years! When there was little work in his field around, he had no choice but to stay. He did self-fund training opportunities; created his own job from a telecoms technician to a “systems architect” and developed skills to become a “sales system architect” on his own for the same shitty pay. In those years, the cost of living completely shot up and that wage didn’t go far.

He finally moved to a new job in 2016 and he was finally earning $85K and with added commissions put his earnings back in line to his UK income. He felt as though he was finally being rewarded for his initiative and self-motivation but he was somewhat uneasy. All those years (from 1987 to 2017) in the industry gave him a perspective of the existing companies and he simply did not trust the company he was with and felt that they were not as prosperous as they led others to believe. He was right and was let go after one year while the company “restructured”.

He looked earnestly for another opportunity but the pay was back to $65K everywhere as we were willing to move around again but it simply didn’t seem worth it. So, in 2017, he “retired” from the telecoms industry and started his own business as a professional photographer.

He earns what he has always wanted to earn and has truly blown my mind at his drive. Currently, we are paying back our savings and trying to put ourselves back into financial solid ground due to previous low-pay and unemployment but we keep getting knocked back with very high taxes and ever-increasing health insurance costs that is truly eating up a substantial amount of our profits. He would love to restructure his business and start hiring employees but this has kept us from doing better. It’s a never-ending task.

My sister and several cousins live in Anchorage, Austin, Charlotte, Denver and can tell you that their wages have been stagnant for at least a decade and their cost of living has doubled. I read today that 48% of Houstonians and Austinites and 50% of San Antonians are paying far more than 30% of their wages on housing and so many are paying closer to 50%.

Personally, I’m over living here.


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This sounds similar to my father, he didn't have a bachelors degree because it wasn't needed in his day only a 2 year degree. Then due to his age he kept needing to move around the country to maintain his salary without having to go back to school. There is a lot of ageism in the US, but I think that's present here now too as more roles are demanding degrees and not accepting experience in lieu of one.

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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #131 on: October 31, 2019, 07:20:47 PM »
Yeah, I did a lot of that in my lifetime - moving from here to there to advance. I was lucky and finally landed with a decent, although not particularly well-paying employer. That had a defined benefit pension (which makes up for a lot). So I spent my last 20 years working with them at 75% of the going market rate for what I did. It was worth it, though. That pension is nice.   If I'd have given them another 10 years,  I'd have retired on full salary. But I couldn't stand it much longer and the Daughter needed to be here, so I quit and we're here.  I've got three degrees, none of them anything remotely related to what I ended up doing for a living. I don't consider them exactly a waste of time and money, but the outcome was definitely a disappointment. If I had known then what I know now, I'd have apprenticed out to be a washing machine repairman as a teenager instead. There is always work there.  ;D

I just got contacted tonight by the Home Office to interview for a job that pays £23K a year for a 40 hour week. Unfortunately, I didn't see that it needs a Counter Terrorist Check security level, so I'm shot down before I started and will have to withdraw my application.  (Haven't been here 5 years yet.) Which I put in, I believe, over six months ago. I don't know that I'd take it even if not. The same type of job "at home" would have been paying at least double that. And I'm kinda "done" with looking for work here. Thankfully, I don't need to have a job. But if I did, I think at this point I'd be seriously considering returning to the USA.

About the cost of housing in Denver and Austin, etc.,  - yeah, it's because California is emptying! The price for a tiny two bedroom flat near my last job was well over $2,000 a month (and closing in on a minimum of $3K now). And we were not the most expensive city in the state.  We lived an hour and a half away for many years and commuted over because it was a lot cheaper inland. Unfortunately, now even inland is getting pricey. And the salaries are not keeping up, so people who can leave are leaving. Austin is a favorite destination, as several High Tech companies have relocated there. I don't think I ever spent less than 40% of my take-home pay on rent. At one point it was close to 75%.  Fortunately, I had health insurance for me and for the Daughter (until she aged off it) that my employer covered, mostly. But yeah, unless you can telecommute or find a job that pays decently in a less desirable part of the country, it's painful economics for sure!

I hope they get the healthcare mess sorted out soon!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 07:36:21 PM by Nan D. »


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Re: One Year in the UK and Can't Wait to Leave.
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2020, 06:59:42 PM »
Many thanks to everyone -- Phatbeetle, Blossom, larrabee, jimbocz, xOKissOfDeath, KFdancer, Margo, Albatross, sonofasailor, Nan D. and anyone else who may have read the post permitting my rant. Once again, I'm angry at myself and probably unfairly projecting some of that anger onto my surroundings. But it is true what many have said that at least I know without question where I want to be (in the US not the UK or Europe), that much is crystal clear.

I actually could go on and on, but that would probably be trying everyone's patience.  :) Like being reminded that today is Halloween and then complaining about the habit of one of my spouse's London born & raised siblings who laughs and says, Oh, you're going out begging when it's trick-or-treating time in the U.S. Both she and my spouse laugh, but I never thought it funny. But maybe that's how some British people feel about it. I've heard that some people here really dislike the tradition, perhaps because it's a US thing. It could perhaps also have some historical basis. This WW2 training film for US soldiers in Britain 1943 is interesting. Apparently, Americans had to be instructed not to flash their money, candy, and cigarettes around because people in Britain were on rations. My husband thinks some resentment still lingers because the Yanks & all their candy were here while British men were fighting for their king & country. Not sure about the numbers, but many British girls ended up marrying American men.  One other half-baked and related theories is some Americans can be a bit flash because we never had to concern ourselves about offending the king or queen or worry about the endless rules of behaviour when in the presence of aristocracy.

This is the WWII film from the archives.

  [nofollow]

A lot of my negativity could also be a form of transference. My husband's relatives have a passive-aggressive way of insulting the US and our American-ness at almost every turn it seems, but I can't call them out on it because what's the point of stirring up trouble. Plus my husband thinks it's all in my head and it's just the way they like to joke around. Like the way a couple of his relatives repeat certain words we say (in a mocking way, which is difficult to explain in writing). Yet we say nothing at all about the way they pronounce words like pasta, for example. They pronounce it like I imagine Shawn the Sheep would. Paaassta. I say pahsta, rhymes with BASTA! lol.

Sorry. I'll stop now and find my own way out. Thank you all again. Expressing all that pent up discontent really was therapeutic.

Wishing you much happiness & success in the UK or wherever you may find yourselves. :)

I realize that this is an old topic and OP has not been seen in quite some time but this post/video makes me think of my British mother who, as a child in London during WW2 (until she was evacuated to Manchester), still remembers the common complaint about American soldiers... that they were "overpaid, over-sexed, and over here!"
She also remembers pestering them for candy and, especially, gum. "Got any gum, chum?"


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