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Topic: Thank you  (Read 1626 times)

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Thank you
« on: October 25, 2005, 09:45:13 PM »
Hello everyone. I asked Garry for some advice in a private message and he asked if I could do it as a post. I suppose this is so that people in a similar situation can be advised at the same time. Here goes with the story from square one: I know you wanted more details, Garry, so if I start by repeating what I have already told you then you can ask for anything specific that you need to know.

My American wife came to visit in October 2002, and after a whirlwind romance we married in January 2003. Upon contacting the Home Office about changing my wife's status we were told that we could either send in all the paperwork and passports or turn up in person during the last four weeks of the tourist visa. As there had been a spate of stories about passports being stolen at the HO, we decided upon the latter course and told them of our plans. They did not see a problem.

My wife's visa was due to expire at the end of April, and so through March we contacted the HO a number of times to ensure we had all the required documention and that we intended to attend on Friday the 4th of April and were specifically told that Fridays were the best days to go as the queues were shorter. As late as Tuesday or Wednesday we called to make sure that we had everything in order and were still told to attend.

They wouldn't even look at our stuff when we got there, we got told that the law had changed on, aptly enough, April the first.

After much exchanging of letters, and involving our MP, we ended up threatening to take Beverly Hughes personally to court for contravening three articles of the European convention on human rights. This resulted in her grudgingly allowing us three years FLR, to be followed by another three years FLR, after which an ILR could be granted. Whilst at the time we were glad not to have deportation threatened at any time it now has started posing problems. We can't get a mortgage etc. because of wife's "temporary" status. Money being tight we can't afford to return to the US to apply in the country of origin, and I must admit to feeling resentment at our shoddy treatment at the hands of this governmental office. Des Brown will not revise La Hughes's decision, which he has stated in a letter to us.

If you can help us in our quest for the elusive ILR we would be most grateful, and if you need any further information or clarification please get in touch.

Thank you Garry. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 10:45:38 PM by Leah »
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Re: Thank you Garry
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2005, 09:56:55 PM »
Beverly Hughes
Des Brown  

Who are these people?  ???


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Re: Thank you Garry
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2005, 10:09:45 PM »
I'm confused about how much time fortyandfeelit's wife spent in the UK on a tourist visa?


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Re: Thank you Garry
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2005, 10:12:07 PM »
Former & current Ministers of Immigration.

The only thing I can think of (from a legal perspective)  you could possibly do would be to apply for a judicial review but not only would that be hugely expensive I doubt it would get far since the Minister's decison was in your favour in that your wife did get a visa.   6 years on a temp visa is very harsh though, you have my sympathies.


Re: Thank you Garry
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2005, 11:47:21 PM »
After much exchanging of letters, and involving our MP, we ended up threatening to take Beverly Hughes personally to court for contravening three articles of the European convention on human rights. This resulted in her grudgingly allowing us three years FLR, to be followed by another three years FLR, after which an ILR could be granted. Whilst at the time we were glad not to have deportation threatened at any time it now has started posing problems. We can't get a mortgage etc. because of wife's "temporary" status. Money being tight we can't afford to return to the US to apply in the country of origin, and I must admit to feeling resentment at our shoddy treatment at the hands of this governmental office. Des Brown will not revise La Hughes's decision, which he has stated in a letter to us.

Thanks for bringing this out publically.  These situations come up via PM's a lot more than we think, about 4 - 5 times this year from different people in the same situation, but they don't get out into general awareness because of reluctance.  After all, it's a difficult thing to write about.

Yes, Article 8 is the proverbial double-edged sword that cuts two ways.  I tend to think of it as the route of last resort, and even then VERY carefully.  Your option in April 2003, upon learning the law had changed was to high-tail it back to the USA and get a spousal visa.  And for whatever reason, either the cost involved or not wanting to be apart or not wanting to take the risk, you stayed on.  Naturally we can call it a mistake in hindsight, but that's what these forums are for.  So if you are thinking about going Article 8, think your way through it all the way; and be sure it's the last available option.   

From their point of view, you have a right to family life, and you've got your family life and that's that.  ILR is something entirely different. 

Yes, Des Brown would not overturn a decision made in Hugh's administration because it was lawfully arrived at and the British public can't be doing with ministers overturning each other's decisions on individual cases.  I try to urge people not to fire off angry letters to ministers, not because I'm an advisor; but because I've never seen anything good come of it in the long run.  It just goes into your file and gets their backs up. 

My rationale is that you cannot shame the Home Office into doing something because they have no shame to begin with  ;D  So it's better to keep your powder dry and look for an option that's less confrontational.  Of course we hear sometimes that someone has received compassionate leave - but it's really and really rare, isn't it?  And in most cases, those people have got broad support from the community or their particular ethnic enclave, and they were able to get some momentum to sway public sentiment. 

So if you're thinking about giving a minister a piece of your mind, think your way through it all the way to the consequences.  And if you absolutely must send a nasty letter because it's the only way you can live with yourself, then for goodness sakes, DO IT THROUGH AN ADVOCACY GROUP.

Last summer, I got called in to help give a Level 0 signposting to a failed asylum seeker - even though I don't do asylum in the first instance - it was for some friends and it was only a signposting anyway.  It seems the fellow claimed asylum and while they were processing his case, he got run over by a car and permanently disabled.   So they came back saying that since he was disabled, that he was unable to support himself.  Now go figure that out.  But there was so much fiery and enflamed ministerial correspondence from him, his gf, his English teacher, plus anybody else they could find, that it was clear the whole imbroglio would NEVER be sorted out.  So be careful!

Another thing to take note of.  The fast-track for spousal ILR after 2 years.  If you go back and read the rules very carefully, what you can see right there in black and white is that it's worded as a concession.  It means they don't have to do it if they don't want to; and if they decide that they are not going to do it, that's just hard cheese.  It's not a right that you can demand.  So be nice.

Now all that doesn't help your situation because in yours it's water over the dam.  But it helps clarify some points that come up from time-to-time in PM's.  For your case, we'll need to put some thought into it.


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Re: Thank you
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2005, 06:18:03 PM »
Garry,

Thanks for the advice.  But to be honest where to we go from here to get the IRL?  What options do we have.  Our MP basically is not going to take it much further.  And we know a couple in the town over who were in the same boat and she got her FLR and IRL. 

There must be options. 

BTW I am the wife and we were told to remain and fight the decision for refusal in the first instance. 
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Re: Thank you
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2005, 08:44:51 PM »
Hello everyone. Des Brown is the home office immigration chief and Beverly Hughes was a predecessor of his who left under a cloud. My wife's tourist visa was for six months, and our trip to Croydon was approximately four weeks before the end of it.
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Re: Thank you
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2005, 06:12:33 AM »
There must be options. 

Yes, when is your FLR finishing?


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Re: Thank you
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2005, 04:14:01 PM »
Garry - would it not be worth their while applying for ILR after 2 years on the spousal visa anyway?  Regardless of what Ms Hughes has said, I am not sure that this can be refused, as the caseworker would have to look at the current rules, surely?


Victoria


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Re: Thank you
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2005, 02:52:35 AM »
I'm really not trying to be glib here, and am certainly no expert on life in the UK, so please don't take this wrong....

...but, I believe that other people on FLR have been successful in getting a mortgage.  If that's the issue, mightn't it be easier to look for another financial institution than to force the issue w/the ILR?
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Re: Thank you
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2005, 07:02:55 AM »
Yes, when is your FLR finishing?

Hi Garry,

My visa ends September 2006.
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Re: Thank you
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2005, 07:05:36 AM »
I'm really not trying to be glib here, and am certainly no expert on life in the UK, so please don't take this wrong....

...but, I believe that other people on FLR have been successful in getting a mortgage.  If that's the issue, mightn't it be easier to look for another financial institution than to force the issue w/the ILR?

Well since we have contacted five morgage brokers and all the companies they have talked to said no because I have my FLR I think I might actually have some experiance in this matter.  I think others on this board have had the same issues.  With house prices being so high we cannot just purchase under one name we need both incomes as proof. 
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Re: Thank you
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2005, 08:11:13 AM »
Garry - would it not be worth their while applying for ILR after 2 years on the spousal visa anyway?  Regardless of what Ms Hughes has said, I am not sure that this can be refused, as the caseworker would have to look at the current rules, surely?


Victoria

I was thinking this too at first but the HO caseworker can't override the Minister's instructions to approve it.  The FLR was approved outside the policy with conditions attached to it for that reason so I am not sure that it is possible to bring it back inside the policy now. I think that is what fortyandfeelit meant when he said Des Brown would not reverse Mrs Hughes' decision.  But who knows ... could be worth a shot ...


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Re: Thank you
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2005, 01:32:41 PM »
Well since we have contacted five morgage brokers and all the companies they have talked to said no because I have my FLR I think I might actually have some experiance in this matter.  I think others on this board have had the same issues.  With house prices being so high we cannot just purchase under one name we need both incomes as proof. 

Sorry, just trying to come up w/a practical solution to your problem.  (No need to be snarky... :-\\\\)  Don't know that I'd want to pay the application fee for ILR knowing that I'd already been told I wasn't eligible....

And yes, some people have run into the same problem w/mortgages and FLR, and others have been successful in getting a mortgage while on FLR....I think on the housing board someone mentioned a company that specializes in expat mortgages....
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 01:39:12 PM by closet.hippie »
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Re: Thank you
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2005, 07:31:58 PM »
Victoria,

Thanks for the thoughts but the agreement is on my record.  If we go under the current rules I would have to fly to the US and apply.  I work and live here.  My mom lives in a state that is not close at all to the Embassy.  Hence, I would basically have to take an extended leave of absence to stay with my mom or fly to the embassy and pay to live in a hotel for maybe weeks on end to just get my FLR for two years.  They will not fast track me to my ILR.

Brit thanks for the clearification.

Garry,

I was wondering what about going to the Ombudsman.  I have worked both in NHS and now for Social Serivices and the Ombudsman has the power to over-rule a decision.  Is that the case for the Home Office?  They should be an impartial third party that examines the facts at the time. 

closet.hippie,

sorry did not mean to come across snappy.  We have done most of the research and feel like we are banging our heads against the wall. 
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