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Topic: If Brexit Happens...  (Read 5605 times)

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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2016, 10:32:25 AM »
I'm not sure which side you are talking about......seems both sides were full of crap.

Yes, both sides were indeed full of crap, I totally agree with that, but I personally felt the Leave side was more hateful and played the fear of further immigration, the fear about being ruled by the powers that be in the EU and about "taking our country back!"


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2016, 10:54:21 AM »
Yes, both sides were indeed full of crap, I totally agree with that, but I personally felt the Leave side was more hateful and played the fear of further immigration, the fear about being ruled by the powers that be in the EU and about "taking our country back!"

Yep....and if I were a Leave person.....those are the same arguments I would have used because they work.....and the Remain side constantly bringing up things that "might" happen to scare people.....jeez....what a mess.  If Cameron had done something to show he was doing something about reducing immigration like he promised.....the Remain side would have won easily. I think the bits about not offering immigrants some of the benefits until they had been in the country for at least a few years was a good move.....if he would have actually done it. And.....then you have the immigrants (like me 14 months ago) who have come in from outside the EU....what action did they take to reduce those numbers....as promised.....people here and in the US are tired of people feeding horse-poo to them. Actually, they have always fed people horse-poo....it finally was just too much of it....

Both campaigns were just a mess. It has to be the worst planning/advertising I've ever seen for something so important.
Fred


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2016, 11:14:59 AM »
Sirius, I don't think you understand how much this freaks out Americans. Many of us were looking forward to our ability to travel the EU after getting our UK passports with ease, the ability to move to another country if we so chose with the ease we didn't get moving to the UK, the seeming stability provided by the EU.

 I think that party might be over, with or without the UK, for all the reasons I stated above. It's not anything new. The changing of free movement has been under talks for many years and all this was on the internet. Abuse and some weird rulings from the European Court, has just about reduced/ended that.

There is strength in numbers, the UK is one tiny country. How long will London stay the centre of European trade now that it's not a part of the EU.

GB is a tiny island, but it has the 5th largest economy in the world.
London was the world trade centre (not just the European) long before the UK joined the EU. It has survived the US and Hong Kong trying to take over.

Hong Kong may still take over because of their favourable time zone and the Asian markets, but it depends on how stable things become in China. However, Forex trading is better suited to the UK's time zone.

The biggest threat to London was when the Euro needed bailing out and although the UK paid in to help the Euro, with extra money given to help our closest neighbour the Republic of Ireland. France and Germany still wanted to raise extra money to bail out the Euro and decided to do this by taxing trades as it didn't affect their countries.

EU countries who make their money from their financial sector are always under threat from a grab on their money via new EU taxes on the financial sector. This EU grab on UK money was one of the things Cameron tried to get a promise on to end, to make the UK vote to remain. The EU never put it into a contract before the 23 June.


 
How much business will the UK now lose from global companies wanting their factories in EU countries because it's easier? 


The EU has already paid companies to move factories to Poland and many in the UK and other western EEA countries did lose their jobs. This had angered a lot in these areas as  the EU was meant to create jobs, not take them.



One of the things they talked about last night as they guessed what areas would vote for Leave, was all the fishermen who lost their jobs when the EU decided that the area of sea they had always fished, would now be reduced. With the host saying for Cormwall "yippee, we got our fish back".

The biggest threat to the EU now is the domino effect. Many countries are very unhappy with the way the EU is going. Not just what I said above about trying to use other EU countries to bail out the Euro, but some very weird rules that favour some countries i.e. the Euro is based on the German model and that does not suit countries like Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal. When they had their own currency they could alter that to benefit their economy, but now they suffer as they can't.

Or,
the  massive EU funded subsidies for farming and manufacturing, which helps the countries who make most of their money from these, i.e. France and Germany.

They won't change and this is the type of thing that rest of the EU countries are fed up with.  Although with the UK being the biggest support to Germany in the EU, it may now mean that the UK gone, the EU power will shift to France and Italy. This won’t please the Germans, who will also have to make up most of the loss of the UK’s money.

All of this has been going on for years and was on the internet. A one time they were taking bets on which country would be the first to get out of the EU, with Grexit the favourite and Brexit and Dexit in 2nd and 3rd.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:24:57 AM by Sirius »


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2016, 11:19:04 AM »
I find it funny that everyone is thinking about Trump because we all have this feeling that a lot of people voted for something stupid.  We are all dreading the morning when we turn on the news and hear they have elected Trump. 

If I hear one more person say "what's the worst that can happen?" ....  I used to think the same thing, and to my shame did not vote against Dubya Bush.  Now him and Tony Blair and my non voting self are responsible for war crimes galore and an entire region collapsing. 

Trump could easily top that sorry achievement.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2016, 01:10:33 PM »
Trump could easily top that sorry achievement.

Trump and Boris Johnson...gulp....
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2016, 01:22:31 PM »
I have to say, I'm really disappointed with the amount of vitriol I've seen today on social media today saying the "stupid" people decided the fate of the country. I was for Remain, but I think it's become abundantly clear that life for the average English/Welshman is not the same as life in London and a few affluent areas down south. It's unfair to label every area of England outside of London as "stupid".

There was a woman on the BBC right after the vote was called who said that when she asked people why they were voting to leave, many people did not specifically say immigration, and agreed both sides had resorted to fear mongering. The response was often "I am tired of not being able to get an appointment at the gp, or get a place for my child at school. I am sick of my 30 year old children still living in my house because they can't afford to move out." The newscaster said "well there are two solutions to this problem: Improve the situation by building new houses, eliminating zero hour contracts, etc or reduce the number of people. And since there hasn't been much movement on the former (at least outside of London) people went with their only other choice." I think a lot of this is about being unhappy with the status quo and wanting change, any change. I don't think it was about the EU so much as it was a big screw you to a government that a lot of people are unhappy with. The people have made their voices heard in a way that can't be ignored by the people in power, and although I disagree with the result, that in itself is an accomplishment.

It's been very convenient up until this point to say "well Brussels won't allow us to improve situation xyz". I'm interested to see what happens now that that excuse is no longer available.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2016, 01:44:40 PM »
Sirius, I don't think you understand how much this freaks out Americans.

Not me. As usual.....some people will be affected more than others. We don't travel.....so easier traveling in the EU isn't a big deal. In or out of the EU.....it isn't going to be hard to travel. Harder?......maybe, but can't see it being much different, countries want people to travel since it is a source of money....and money talks the loudest.


Good for you! You don't want to travel because you already did all the traveling you wanted when you were younger. What about the rest of us? We haven't had our chance yet and now some won't have the same oppurtunities.

There is strength in numbers, the UK is one tiny country.

The UK is ranked 5th in the world for GDP......


Actually, France has the 5th highest economy today... http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683003/Brexit-shock-France-overtakes-UK-worlds-fifth-largest-economy-pound-plunges

Yep, 6th highest in the world and still the leavers say that the steel industry leaving, and other factory work moving away from the UK is 'killing the economy'. How can that be when it's the 6th highest in the world?

How much of the GDP is solely British in origin though?

Not to mention this sounds a bit familiar. Maybe like the US a few decades ago when our mining and factory jobs have slowly been outsourced to more cost effective countries... Industry is not going to stay the same. Look at Detroit. The auto industry has mostly moved on and the city is in MAJOR trouble, but is the rest of Illinois okay? I'd say so, it ranked 5th in GDP of the 50 states in 2006 (most recent figures I could easily find). They haven't changed with the times. It's the same thing for Britain.


Not to mention it shows how easily that terrible Orange Man running for president in the US could become president of the US this fall. No one wants that, but such a divisive vote leaves this more and more likely.

I agree that Trump is a nut case (I don't think Clinton is a whole lot better choice)......but I think you are not able to see why people are voting for him. People are sick and tired of the "same old thing" with the politicians and are willing to vote for him if it breaks up what they see (and me as well) as a corrupt system getting steadily worse. Ifffffff I were voting anymore.....neither is a decent choice, but I can understand (although I don't like it) how people would vote for Trump


Are you saying that you can see why people 'want to make America great again?' By measure in GDP, IT'S THE BEST! It's the top economy by (nominal) GDP in the world.

Do I think we need a massive overhaul of the US political system? Yes! Is Donald Trump the one to do it? H*LL NO!

America needs to stop voting the same senators and congressmen into power, they're the reason politics isn't changing!

This is a very interesting article about who is voting for Trump.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/who-are-donald-trumps-supporters-really/471714/

Mostly, white, male and poor. They didn't go to college, don't feel like the have a voice in government and they want to wage war on outsiders. Who are outsiders? People who aren't like them. Mostly POC plus or minus a foreign accent.

AND they live in ares of the country with racial resentment. Well, honestly that's everywhere. In the south it's blacks, in the west it's hispanics and latinos and blacks. I haven't lived in the North East of the Pacific Northwest, so I don't know theirs... But you hear of prejudice against all POC in New York City.

The usual. American girl meets British guy. They fall into like, then into love. Then there was the big decision. The American traveled across the pond to join the Brit. And life was never the same again.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2016, 02:08:30 PM »
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2016, 02:18:59 PM »
lyonaria.......while I certainly did some traveling when I was younger.....I've never really enjoyed it that much and always linked it up to a hobby. Just going somewhere....has never done it for me.....I've always wondered why people "go" somewhere to see these amazing things when they usually haven't seen the really amazing things that they live near already. I have lived in several countries over the years which I did enjoy since I could really mix with the culture. But....there is nothing to stop you from traveling. Brexit won't stop people from traveling.

As far as Trump.....whoa whoa whoa.....I didn't say I agree with anything he says. I said that I can understand why people are going to vote for him. As NewMeetsOldEngland has stated (and I did as well)....people are willing to do almost anything to get the political system to change. I think the Tea Party are nuts/extreme.....but I can understand why they have done what they have done. Voting for Clinton (or the Tories) is a vote for things to stay as they are (people with money controlling just about everything).....there are a lot of people (and they spoke yesterday) who do not think that "things as they are" is ok.

If they would let me make the rules for the next election (US or UK)......I think a large amount of the problems we have in both countries could be solved. But.....I don't think they are going to let me do that. The people in power would definitely not want me to do that since they couldn't control what happens as much.

As stated already.....I think people are WAY too angry over what has happened and really aren't able to put themselves into someone else's shoes. They just don't understand the other persons point of view (in which case they think the other person is wrong)......a big problem everywhere in the world. I can see why a lot of people wanted to Remain......I can see why people wanted to Leave......to state that one view is the right view and the other is wrong is why the EU is having it's problems.
Fred


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2016, 02:21:48 PM »
I have to say, I'm really disappointed with the amount of vitriol I've seen today on social media today saying the "stupid" people decided the fate of the country. I was for Remain, but I think it's become abundantly clear that life for the average English/Welshman is not the same as life in London and a few affluent areas down south. It's unfair to label every area of England outside of London as "stupid".

There was a woman on the BBC right after the vote was called who said that when she asked people why they were voting to leave, many people did not specifically say immigration, and agreed both sides had resorted to fear mongering. The response was often "I am tired of not being able to get an appointment at the gp, or get a place for my child at school. I am sick of my 30 year old children still living in my house because they can't afford to move out." The newscaster said "well there are two solutions to this problem: Improve the situation by building new houses, eliminating zero hour contracts, etc or reduce the number of people. And since there hasn't been much movement on the former (at least outside of London) people went with their only other choice." I think a lot of this is about being unhappy with the status quo and wanting change, any change. I don't think it was about the EU so much as it was a big screw you to a government that a lot of people are unhappy with. The people have made their voices heard in a way that can't be ignored by the people in power, and although I disagree with the result, that in itself is an accomplishment.

It's been very convenient up until this point to say "well Brussels won't allow us to improve situation xyz". I'm interested to see what happens now that that excuse is no longer available.

Please notice that I didn't call the people stupid , I said they voted for something stupid. 

If anybody believes that it's going to be easier to get a GP appointment tomorrow, or any other day because we have scapegoated foreigners while tanking the economy, then that's a stupid belief. 


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2016, 02:51:39 PM »
Please notice that I didn't call the people stupid , I said they voted for something stupid. 

If anybody believes that it's going to be easier to get a GP appointment tomorrow, or any other day because we have scapegoated foreigners while tanking the economy, then that's a stupid belief. 

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you. I was commenting on the viewpoints I've seen from my own social circle who have actually used words like "simple" and "stupid". I just meant that I don't think it's fair (for the people I know) to assume that just because someone voted in a different way than they would have done that it's because that other person is stupid. If anything, maybe it's a sign that we are all a bit short sighted when it comes to people in situations different to our own, whether you are a banker in the City or living on benefits. I hope no one is expecting change over night, but change isn't necessarily a bad thing.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2016, 03:00:09 PM »
lyonaria.......while I certainly did some traveling when I was younger.....I've never really enjoyed it that much and always linked it up to a hobby. Just going somewhere....has never done it for me.....I've always wondered why people "go" somewhere to see these amazing things when they usually haven't seen the really amazing things that they live near already. I have lived in several countries over the years which I did enjoy since I could really mix with the culture. But....there is nothing to stop you from traveling. Brexit won't stop people from traveling.

Yeah, traveling is a hobby. It's also a great thing to do to help broaden your horizons as a human being. Not that everyone who travels has that experience... It won't stop people from traveling, but it changes how easy it is to travel. We don't know what will happen regarding the need for visas to visit Europe, that has to be worked out.

I've been asked from day one 'Why would you want to move to TinyPodunkTown in the UK,' by the people who already live here. They are often very surprised by my answer. There is a lot of history close by, there are some beautiful places to explore, and Europe is a cheap flight away! Also, I'm not from here so everything is new to me! I ask them why would you want to move to move where I'm from 'TinyPodunkTown, CO USA?' It's unbearably hot in the summer, 40+ degrees C (105 F), and below zero in winter. You sunburn very easily and heatstroke is always a possibility in summer. The people where I live are terribly conservative and only vote locally for things that benefit retirees, you have to pay for ALL healthcare. There is nothing to do but drink or do outdoor activities (some of which are expensive to get it into).

But, it's beautiful. Red Rocks, a large river. The mountains are only an hour away. You can get to Moab, Utah in an hour. I know what's great about it. I am self aware enough to see the attraction of where I lived, it did have a lot going for it. It also had a lot of pain in the ass, crappy things too. 

As far as Trump.....whoa whoa whoa.....I didn't say I agree with anything he says. I said that I can understand why people are going to vote for him. As NewMeetsOldEngland has stated (and I did as well)....people are willing to do almost anything to get the political system to change. I think the Tea Party are nuts/extreme.....but I can understand why they have done what they have done. Voting for Clinton (or the Tories) is a vote for things to stay as they are (people with money controlling just about everything).....there are a lot of people (and they spoke yesterday) who do not think that "things as they are" is ok.

If they would let me make the rules for the next election (US or UK)......I think a large amount of the problems we have in both countries could be solved. But.....I don't think they are going to let me do that. The people in power would definitely not want me to do that since they couldn't control what happens as much.

As stated already.....I think people are WAY too angry over what has happened and really aren't able to put themselves into someone else's shoes. They just don't understand the other persons point of view (in which case they think the other person is wrong)......a big problem everywhere in the world. I can see why a lot of people wanted to Remain......I can see why people wanted to Leave......to state that one view is the right view and the other is wrong is why the EU is having it's problems.

I can quite easily see someone else's point of view, thank you very much. It's what drove me mental in college I couldn't stand it. So few people in my courses could see anything outside of their own fishbowl (their life experiences). They couldn't step back and arbitrarily look at a situation that they read about and understand why something happened. I feel this is continueing to be an issue now. People aren't looking at this issue in how is it going to affect the country as a whole, they are thinking 'ME ME ME. NOW NOW NOW.' Political change isn't going to be instantaneous, but that's how they want it. And they think the xenophobic, racist, sexist, ableist Orange Man is going to be the one to do it.

He's going to do it because he says what he wants, when he wants to. More and more people are saying and doing hateful racist things because, 'Hey, it's okay. A major political candidate feels the same way as me.' He makes grandiose and vague promises that there is no way he can keep. 'We're going to build a wall across the Mexican border and the Mexicans are gonna pay for it.' He incites violence among his followers, and he even said he would pay their legal bills if they got into legal trouble at one of his rallies over beating up/injuring a protester.

Sure, I can see why people would want to vote for him. He's nothing they have ever seen before.
He promises major changes. But how can he promise change when he has no idea how to work the system? He can't completely dismantle the US government and change it. Well, he could, but that would involve Martial law... or worse.

The usual. American girl meets British guy. They fall into like, then into love. Then there was the big decision. The American traveled across the pond to join the Brit. And life was never the same again.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2016, 03:43:25 PM »


Depressing isn't it.   Also I'm amazed that such a momentous decision comes down to a simple majority vote, and didn't require a supermajority.

I think the biggest assets for the leave campaign were European politicians like Wolfgang Schäuble and Jean-Claude Juncker with their sneering brinksmanship and threats.   They just cemented the image of a European elite out of touch, not caring, and incapable of reform.   They should take a note of how Angela Merkel handled the UK referendum with dignity and respect.


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2016, 03:44:27 PM »
I just meant that I don't think it's fair (for the people I know) to assume that just because someone voted in a different way than they would have done that it's because that other person is stupid.

Not to quibble, but the other person could indeed be a complete idiot.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: If Brexit Happens...
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2016, 03:51:25 PM »
with their sneering brinksmanship and threats.

EU parliament president: we want Britain out as soon as possible

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/top-eu-leader-we-want-britain-out-as-soon-as-possible

It may not be as easy as saying, "Oh we'll just adopt the Norway option." It may get ugly.

I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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