UK: Brown resigns

I've only been watching British politics for the last 3 years or so, but watching Labour in that time they've seemed to lack vision and leadership.  I have no idea what they stand for aside from "whatever will get you to vote for us."  

They'd float a policy idea, wait to see what the public reaction was, and then press forward or back down based on the response.  If you don't believe that, Google "labour backs down from."  There are results from the BBC, The Telegraph, The Independent, etc, all with stories about some idea Labour put forward, only to bail on it a few days later when it proved unpopular.  That strikes me as incompetent and out of touch with the electorate.  They need a leader they believe in, and some fresh blood to come in and re-energize the party, which looks to be exhausted of ideas after such a long time in power.

For what it's worth, I don't think the Conservatives have done any better job of getting out any message other than "We're not Labour," but until the first debate and the Clegg/Lib Dem surge, they didn't need to.

The pandering to the swing (usually at least right leaning) is a huge problem.  Government doesn't only need to perform the will of the people.  It needs to do this whilst protecting the rights of those who the majority would unfairly trample.  Government needs to respond but not in haste only considering how it will effect the approval ratings.

ETA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

If you voted Lib Dem, you voted for a party which has held this as a major concern of government since its founding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill#Mill.27s_view_on_social_liberty_and_tyranny_of_majority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty

From memory (and this may be wrong), you actually aren't an immigrant in the UK.

He immigrated to the UK from North America.

I am somewhat hesitant to believe you are actually interested in the answer to your first question, given your second statement - but hey, let's give it a shot.

You may believe as you see fit, but my comments weren't a personal attack directed at you.  If you chose to take it personally and/or draw your own unfavourable conclusions as to my meaning or intent, then I'm sorry about that.

Given your thoughts that most people must be against Labour just because they "aren't Tory,"... 

Those are your words - not my thoughts.  What I actually said was:

I mean for some of you, the answer is probably just that 'they aren't Tories'.

There is a difference in definition between the word 'some' and the word 'most'.  In any case, I believe that I misspoke in saying what I actually did say, because upon further reflection, I don't think there are necessarily many immigrants to the UK in recent-ish times that will have the same love or loathing for the Tories, compared to that which some people having lived here longer would have, for reasons such as:

...when she (Thatcher) then proceeded to use to destroy the industrial base of the UK...

I wasn't here then either, but that really bugs me for what its human cost was (some areas have recovered, some are still suffering) & it still bugs a heckuva lot of people up here that I know.  Only time will tell if they (Tories) have changed their spots, but I am in the doubting camp.

Lastly, I am sorry to english.bloke (aka engkish.bloke) - for saying you were a drive-by poster.  Very confusing whatever happened with your user name & your old/new/old profile(s)!

On immigration (as one part of this discussion), I am not one of those who sees immigration as this huge hairy deal, however - other than what the media likes to stir up to fan the flames, and you know the politicians (every side) then seize upon that - perhaps because it distracts from more serious issues?  Yes, legal immigration here has been made too expensive for a lot of people.  As for 'bad' immigration (the kind as per the Daily Mail, which I don't think many if any on here at the moment think this way?) - neither my husband nor I have met a 'bad' immigrant yet, so we wonder who all these 'bad' immigrants are?  My 2p on immigration.

Good to see various viewpoints though on what people believe as to where it all went wrong! 

On immigration (as one part of this discussion), I am not one of those who sees immigration as this huge hairy deal, however - other than what the media likes to stir up to fan the flames, and you know the politicians (every side) then seize upon that - perhaps because it distracts from more serious issues?  Yes, legal immigration here has been made too expensive for a lot of people.  As for 'bad' immigration (the kind as per the Daily Mail, which I don't think many if any on here at the moment think this way?) - neither my husband nor I have met a 'bad' immigrant yet, so we wonder who all these 'bad' immigrants are?  My 2p on immigration.

I don't think there's "good" and "bad" immigration either.  However, how the Labour party has responded to public perception of immigration was how they failed me and many other non-EEA immigrants, and judging from the rhetoric out of the leader candidates, Labour will continue to do so.

It goes beyond being priced out of immigration.  For some very skilled people, they've had routes to visas closed off by the change in the requirements.  The family route has been likely lengthened and filled with future as of yet unknown obstacles as it hasn't been fully implemented. I can understand that someone who has dual citizenship might not see this misuse of the issue of immigration as a top-concern, but for some of us, we will have long political memories and will be watching what happens next with interest.  It would be nice to see a responsible political leader that stood up and diffused the issue of the power it has instead of seeing it in a way to get votes by appearing tough on it.

On immigration (as one part of this discussion), I am not one of those who sees immigration as this huge hairy deal

Me neither. However, when I hear people saying "Immigration is an important issue to me", I sometimes seem to hear "There are too many foreigners here" and, I am afraid, "There are too many blacks, Asians and other nonwhites" as well. Of course the whole topic of immigration policy is going to be of interest to those who are immigrants themselves, but maybe in a different way.

I think Legs Akimbo got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't think there's "good" and "bad" immigration either.  However, how the Labour party has responded to public perception of immigration was how they failed me and many other non-EEA immigrants, and judging from the rhetoric out of the leader candidates, Labour will continue to do so.

It goes beyond being priced out of immigration.  For some very skilled people, they've had routes to visas closed off by the change in the requirements.  The family route has been likely lengthened and filled with future as of yet unknown obstacles as it hasn't been fully implemented. I can understand that someone who has dual citizenship might not see this misuse of the issue of immigration as a top-concern, but for some of us, we will have long political memories and will be watching what happens next with interest.  It would be nice to see a responsible political leader that stood up and diffused the issue of the power it has instead of seeing it in a way to get votes by appearing tough on it.

My feelings on immigration are similar.  I do not dislike immigration but I do dislike the response to immigration in order to satisfy the popular opinion.  I also hate "plug the hole" targets on immigration that remove highly skilled workers (since it is the only category that can be narrowed down) because arguably highly skilled workers are some of the most important categories of immigrants to any country (from a financial aspect).

Immigration is a huge deal because much of the country makes it one.  By extension, and being an immigrant myself, it has to then be a huge deal to me.

quote author=Trémula link=topic=62628.msg884082#msg884082 date=1274025088]
However, when I hear people saying "Immigration is an important issue to me", I sometimes seem to hear "There are too many foreigners here" and, I am afraid, "There are too many blacks, Asians and other nonwhites" as well. [/quote]

Well what you hear in your head is still wrong and inappropriate.  No one here thinks this.  I still cannot belive you called posters on this thread bigots and Nazis without 1) a reprimand and 2) a single personal thought for how inappropriate that was followed by an apology.

You may believe as you see fit, but my comments weren't a personal attack directed at you.  If you chose to take it personally and/or draw your own unfavourable conclusions as to my meaning or intent, then I'm sorry about that.

....

There is a difference in definition between the word 'some' and the word 'most'.  In any case, I believe that I misspoke in saying what I actually did say, because upon further reflection, I don't think there are necessarily many immigrants to the UK in recent-ish times that will have the same love or loathing for the Tories, compared to that which some people having lived here longer would have, for reasons such as:

I didn't take your comments as a personal attack on me or related to me specifically at all.  But you do feel free to bemoan the Tories every chance you get, which makes it difficult to believe you actually want to understand the other side.  If you say that isn't the case, then fine, but it does seem strange that people have responded to your query and you choose to pretty much disregard those posts.  I don't really know your motivations and it isn't for me to understand particularly, I was just commenting on how your query didn't seem to match up, from my outside perspective.  It isn't really my business further so I am going to step out of this part of the conversation.

Regarding my use of the word most and some, I did not intend to misrepresent your post.  It was simply a slip in paraphrasing.

And I do find your recent realisation that recent immigrants will feel differently about Tories than Brits themselves slighly humerous, as this was a point I tried to repeatedly make in the previous long politics thread (upset I can't vote or similar).  The same thread where, when I noted I was leaning towards Tories, I was called a selfish bastard amongst other nice gems.  I am glad that some people are starting to see that there are different perspectives and supporting Tory, in this election, doesn't automatically equate to something horrible.  Everyone has their reasons.

Me neither. However, when I hear people saying "Immigration is an important issue to me", I sometimes seem to hear "There are too many foreigners here" and, I am afraid, "There are too many blacks, Asians and other nonwhites" as well. Of course the whole topic of immigration policy is going to be of interest to those who are immigrants themselves, but maybe in a different way.

I think Legs Akimbo got the wrong end of the stick.

Well perhaps then you should get your ears tested and keep your thoughts to yourself, its you that's linking immigration to colour/race not anyone else of this board.  

Me neither. However, when I hear people saying "Immigration is an important issue to me", I sometimes seem to hear "There are too many foreigners here" and, I am afraid, "There are too many blacks, Asians and other nonwhites" as well. Of course the whole topic of immigration policy is going to be of interest to those who are immigrants themselves, but maybe in a different way.

I understand your feelings about people who think like that, but I honestly don't think that's anyone on this particular thread.

The same thread where, when I noted I was leaning towards Tories, I was called a selfish bastard amongst other nice gems.

If someone called you that on another thread and you are still angry about it, have you considered contacting them via PM to let them know that it upset you or hurt your feelings?  If that's the case, I can understand your being upset.  

Just because I don't respond to every single post doesn't mean I have disregarded them.  I may not respond for a variety of reasons.  

I asked the question in the hopes that we could look at people's various thoughts & opinions over why Labour had failed, hopefully without dissolving into personal attacks and other general awfulness.  I think we have succeeded on the first part thus far, and failed on the latter.  Could we just please continue & try to be respectful of each other's opinions?  Being respectful doesn't mean that we all have to agree with each other.  Or if that's not possible, then perhaps we should stop?

Well perhaps then you should get your ears tested and keep your thoughts to yourself, its you that's linking immigration to colour/race not anyone else of this board.  

Don't be ridiculous, Mr 9 Posts.

If someone called you that on another thread and you are still angry about it, have you considered contacting them via PM to let them know that it upset you or hurt your feelings?  If that's the case, I can understand your being upset. 

I didn't contact them via PM because I didn't see the point.  I am still quite upset because I had started posting in the thread in a real good faith attempt to understand everyone's views -- not having a particular history with one party (unlike a discussion on US politics where I would likely bring my own historical baggage to the discussion).  It wasn't just the specific posters who said quite a lot of unsavory things but that a moderator didn't think it worthy of a reprimand and no other poster thought to say "hey not cool."  I really felt that if it had been one of the other parties or I would have been a more popular poster, it would have been spotted right away as really inappropriate.  Like look at how, in this thread, Tremula has called certain supporters bigots and Nazis, with nary a word for inappropriateness beyond those targetted.

But I should be a big girl and really let it go.  And I openly admit that is has tainted my approach when others have said they want to hear those Tory views because I think back to that thread and remember that it wasn't the case then.  I do apologise for letting my own upset carry over undeservedly.

I asked the question in the hopes that we could look at people's various thoughts & opinions over why Labour had failed, hopefully without dissolving into personal attacks and other general awfulness.  I think we have succeeded on the first part thus far, and failed on the latter.  Could we just please continue & try to be respectful of each other's opinions?  Or if that's not possible, then perhaps we should stop?

I am definitely not disrepectful of your opinion to vote the way your did.  It may not be mine and I may not understand it fully but it is your right. 

And as for the stopping of the awfulness, as above, I will try and approach the topic on face value and not bring in the other times and hope everyone else is doing the same. 

Though I will say, if no one apologises for the awful labels (bigot, Nazis, selfish bastard) each time this discussion is brought up, I am not sure how it will ever be pleasant.  It just means one side will stop talking.

Tremula has called certain supporters bigots and Nazis

Where did I do that?

If anyone wants to discuss the way a topic/area is being moderated, please either use 'Report to Moderator' or else contact a global moderator or the moderator over the specific board in question.  I think that would be more productive than taking up moderation issues within a thread itself.

I didn't contact them via PM because I didn't see the point. 

Sometimes a person is more likely to work things out that way though - it's been my experience anyway. 

Rather than read through the whole lot and pick out all the nasty comments to delete, I'm feeling a bit lazy and will just be locking the topic now, in the hopes that if the discussion gets carried further in other places, as I'm sure it will, then people will do it nicely.

I would like to add one comment further. If people find it impossible to discuss politics here without over the top comments, we may consider banning the hot topics and removing the politics board altogether as the resentment and nastiness tends to spill over to other non-related topics.