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Topic: Dale Farms  (Read 5531 times)

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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2011, 08:53:56 PM »
The Amish pay taxes, but not Social Security. They don't collect it though.

Quote
Do the Amish pay taxes?

Self-employed Amish do not pay Social Security tax. Those employed by non- Amish employers do pay Social Security tax. The Amish do pay real estate, state and federal income taxes, county taxes, sales tax, etc.

The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs. Section 310 of the Medicare section of the Social Security act has a sub-section that permits individuals to apply for exemption from the self-employment tax if he is a member of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to Social Security benefits but that makes reasonable provision of taking care of their own elderly or dependent members. The Amish have a long history of taking care of their own members. They do not have retirement communities or nursing homes; in most cases, each family takes care of their own, and the Amish community gives assistance as needed.

http://www.holycrosslivonia.org/amish/amishfaq.htm#tax


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2011, 08:57:42 PM »
I want to focus on all those who are cheating and breaking the law.  Some big banks did and I hope they get what is coming to them, these people did and well if you are going to flout it so obviously then people are going to notice.

Why should we ignore it just because they claim to be poor, whether they are or are not?

So the towns and people who are affected by these issues should just shut up and deal because these people are poor? 


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2011, 09:12:26 PM »
Bookgrl, thanks for clearing that up.


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2011, 10:37:09 PM »
I know where you are coming from  Book....we can't descend into anarchy...and the laws governing these things aren't tied together. It just puzzles and disturbs me.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2011, 04:35:45 PM »
Me too.  I mean it goes back to the fact that they passed all these laws to stop them travelling in the 80s/90s.  What did the gov't except would happen?  Otoh, you can't just go around doing what you want. 

BAH!


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2011, 05:01:26 PM »
Hi

Just some thoughts


1. There seems to be a notion that corporations and bankers and the government etc are at solely at fault for financial woes of the country. That has some truth of course, but also please do include the other segment which has a very substantial amount of blame as well. The general UK population.

Don't forget, theres many individuals who took out loans and mortgages way beyond their means. The only issue is we cannot really see who they are individually so human nature is then going to blame those who are visible - ie bankers and government. If the general UK population wasn't as downright abysmal with their money and their mindset we as a country perhaps wouldn't be in such a massive hole as we find ourselves in.

2. There's also a notion that corporations etc are deliberately avoiding paying tax and that they're also doing it illegally. I have news for those who think that - it's called Legal Tax reduction using the laws of the tax system. Corporations 99.95% of the time do tax reduction legally. When it's illegal, many a time it's down to a rogue individual within the company. There's legal ways of avoiding or reducing your tax burden as a private individual - it's NOT illegal to do so. Implying that corporations are lying and illegally tax avoiding is far fetched as best.

3. The 'system' has to 'TRY' to be great to as much of the population, as much of the time, as possible. Part of that is everyone pays via Taxes into the system, which then provides services and infrastructure to benefit everyone as and when they need or want it.  Those who choose to ignore that and not pay taxes or their dues shouldn't be eligible when they want to use it. It's of course very difficult to police and control, without getting draconian about it. In this topic, it's the people who had purposely built on land they know they shouldn't have and the law is being upheld - it's quite simple really. The taxpayer has paid a large amount to do things by the books for 10 years even offered them accomodation which was refused. Just when are those who do pay taxes and into the system going to decide enough is enough and move them on? -

4. Related to the above, it's well known, and part of general knowledge to an extent there are various groups who do indeed decide to play the system, look for loopholes to take advantage of, perhaps do illegal things etc etc. They want to live by what they think they can do. I agree with the recent post, fine, go live as you wish, just don't take anything from those who are in the current system. Work out a way of living the way you want - if that involves stealing from others, then when you are caught, expect to be judged on the practices/laws of the people you took from i.e pay them back for what you stole. If you find you cannot live the way you wish, then compromises will need to be done.

5. It's those compromises which are difficult, because as ever, everyone believes and thinks they are right or their community is right, or their 'race' is right or their 'religion' is right.

6. No one has the answers, the 'governments' have to be there to try and juggle what is going to try and keep most of the population happy for as long as possible. The last government decided to borrow amounts way beyond it's means in order to try and keep it's population as happy as could be,that included laws which allowed bizarre levels of debt from individuals to businesses alike - we are now in the situation where that money needs to be paid back, an element that many of those individuals, businesses, bankers, politicians chose to ignore.

7. Wouldn't it be great if the ordinary individual of the population could choose where their tax money went?! it'll never happen of course, but if it could, I'm pretty sure the residents of Dale farm wouldn't get a penny. Those who do feel sorry for them, thats fine if that's how you feel of course, but would you perhaps feel the same way if it was your land they'd decided to build on? would you be as sympathetic to them if it was your street their residents sat on causing issues?  would you then divert some of your taxes in order to help them?  

8. Now something you generally don't really hear - a previous business I was involved with, an industrial area and our unit was quite large for the business sector we were involved in. The local area had it's population of course and we employed some local people in our offices and warehouse. Business operations allowed us to expand and take on more etc over time. Felt good and nice. Recruitment time, and about 100 yards away was a small side road and an area of land which was very similar to Dale Farm. The community there was 'travellers' - we'd often see the adults and kids come rifling through our bins to try and salvage what they could to sell on - metal (which we had plenty of!) etc would be taken by them. Over some time, I got to know the usual faces and after it kind of got a bit more accepting - i'd talk with them. In short, they do indeed have 'good people' in their community, however they are also very aware that theres a large section of thier community who aren't good people and they, the good ones don't like it. The ones who want to work, feel as though they're held back by their less nicer counterparts as many people who aren't in the community don't trust them. One very important aspect was when it came to jobs, and I was told to be double or triple vigilant if it was indeed one of their community that applied for the job. In reality no one from that community even applied, but I wonder what I'd have done/thought if I had interviewed one etc. The general gist is that I'd 'probably' have not got such a good worker, potential of 'issues' later as well. That fear or route of thinking whichever way you see it, is how many other employers also feel and it's caused by the community themselves. It's that element which prevents good progression and as soon as communities like that realize they need to change themselves from within is when they'll become more trusted and accepted in society. (the same sort of thought for when the recent riots happened - as an employer, I genuinely fear for myself if I was to employ someone from that community in case of any issues/fights outside of work affecting the employee which in turn could affect me or my business) - Lastly, out of all that, some of the staff we did employ, you could well catagorize in the 'chav' way thats often mentioned. Myself and partners were indeed 'edgy' with the fact we'd potentially have to deal with all sorts of excuses - it turned out out of perhaps 8/9 people like that, just 2/3 were approaching being kind of bad with timekeeping and skiving and poor productivity. Those staff lasted perhaps a few months longer than we should've kept them as we tried sitting down and talking with them to try and understand the bigger picture. A few times too many excuses for not being on time, skiving a day off and we'd simply fire them.

There's many facets into each point above, and other points that stem out of it all. The UK will only continue to be successful by reducing it's vast overspend, moving towards changing the mindset of the general population. Other countries which are much more willing to do those sorts of things, are moving ahead of the UK quite quickly indeed.

Cheers, DtM! West London & Slough UK!


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2011, 06:17:22 PM »
When it's illegal, many a time it's down to a rogue individual within the company.
Goldman Sachs let off paying £10m interest on failed tax avoidance scheme

"The company, along with 21 investment banks and other firms, purchased blueprints for an avoidance scheme called an employee benefit trust (EBT)."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/11/goldman-sachs-interest-tax-avoidance?newsfeed=true
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2011, 06:30:51 PM »
some of the staff we did employ, you could well catagorize in the 'chav' way thats often mentioned. Myself and partners were indeed 'edgy' with the fact we'd potentially have to deal with all sorts of excuses

Did you give the chavs a special hat to wear or something so they'd be easier to single out, or maybe a rubber "chav" stamp for their files?
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2011, 06:59:40 PM »
Hi

Corruption exists - I don't doubt that for a second, the MP's expenses scandal, various corporations and individuals doing some scam etc all happen. The amount of corruption that exists amongst ordinary individuals also happens, probably on a more widespread scale but much smaller amounts. There's usually not long before some of those people are shown up too, for claiming benefits they're not entitled to etc.

There's much talk of locking up the bankers and corporate scammers (and you don't need to look very far to see ex CEO's of massive multi national companies currently behind bars) so why not the same sort of level of outcry to the individuals in society who borrowed more than they should have and are partly responsible for the mess we all find ourselves in?

Someone will say we don't have enough prison space - and that'd be the truth if all the tax cheats, benefit fraudsters were rounded up. One way I think could work is to get benefits if you are 'able' to work is to actually 'do work' - out in the community - which I think has been suggested. Will certainly help with that mindset we need changing...

Cheers, DtM!


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Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2011, 07:09:15 PM »
Did you give the chavs a special hat to wear or something so they'd be easier to single out, or maybe a rubber "chav" stamp for their files?

No, I didn't need to do that. However, quite often upon just talking it was clear that with multiple arrests backgrounds, general views on things it's that type of area they were from. Thankfully, the ones who did want to work did so and were happy doing so, to the extent that when I'd do a few hours with them in the warehouse, they'd often tell the tardier ones to stop faffing about and it was even better to see that ethic carry on when sometimes in amongst our stock, I'd be looking for some items, they'd not know I was there and they'd still be telling the tardier ones to buckle up.

Cheers, DtM!


Re: Dale Farms
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2011, 09:14:11 AM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0170cm1

Interesting watch for anyone interested in how things happened.  I do think they tried to be even-handed.  It was interesting to learn that the space was formerly occupied by a scrap-yard (where the council dumped many of their own vehicles), which the travellers cleaned up and paid to be carted away.



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