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Topic: TV licensing opt out  (Read 2316 times)

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TV licensing opt out
« on: April 15, 2016, 02:59:39 PM »
Hi every one,

This topic must come up regularly but a quick search hasn't brought up anything recent and I believe things have changed in the past few years on this topic.

I was wondering if I could get out of paying tv licensing. I do watch absolutely zero tv here, be it live or through their apps for watching replays - and that's in spite of being currently licensed. Yet we do have a television in our home, we just don't use it for television channels.

We moved to the UK a little over a year ago, and of course were fairly quickly addressed with a kind request to pay for tv licensing. We just went for it and paid, as I expected things to be just like in Germany or France, where I lived earlier and where we would definitely get into trouble if not paying and being controlled, just for owning a television. However I talked to friends in the mean time and it seems a little different in the UK. Not too easy to find information because everything official is so carefully phrased to encourage paying and leaving grey areas dark grey.
So I'm hoping to get people's experience here. Are you supposed to pay tv licensing if you own and use a tv, but never watch any of the contents covered by tv licensing? Is the fact that we paid last year and now want to opt out going to send a controller, and could that cause any trouble (again, in Germany or France, such a control would absolutely end in "you own a television set, you must pay")


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2016, 03:46:16 PM »
I used to live in Germany too. Here you don't pay per household as you do in Germany, you only pay if you watch live television (be it on TV or online).

So you can even watch any program on the BBC iPlayer without a license as long as it isn't a live broadcast.

There have been discussions to change this, because the law predates modern ways of consuming television, but as of now they haven't done it yet. I heard a discussion about this on the Today show a week or so ago.

You do have to send them the form though saying you're opting out.

I would also maybe put a piece of tape over the TV plugs/cords in the wall, just in case they check you. I've lived in the UK for almost a year and opted out right when I got here and haven't heard anything since.


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2016, 04:09:35 PM »
I have an employee at work who chose not to do the license (she also doesn't watch tv).  She had a visit from the enforcement team who wanted to look at her flat and see that she didn't have a tv.  She doesn't have a tv, so had no problems passing their inspection.


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2016, 04:23:37 PM »
You're definitely allowed to have a TV as long as it isn't used to watch live television.

See tip 6
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/tv-licence


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2016, 09:18:13 PM »
You do have to send them the form though saying you're opting out.
There's no legal requirement to inform TV Licensing that you're opting out - you haven't bought a license because you don't need one.

I would also maybe put a piece of tape over the TV plugs/cords in the wall, just in case they check you.
TV Licensing have no right to enter your home without your permission to check on anything - they are sales people, don't let them in. And definitely don't sign anything!

I haven't watched or recorded live TV for years and finally stopped paying for a licence in Oct 2014 - since then, I've been getting increasingly threatening letters which go straight in the recycling bin.

Some good advice here:
http://www.bbctvlicence.com/Tips%20for%20avoidng%20TVL-BBC%20harassment.htm

Also, examples of letters you may get from them:
http://www.bbctvlicence.com/2013%20letters.htm



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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2016, 11:02:10 AM »
There's no legal requirement to inform TV Licensing that you're opting out - you haven't bought a license because you don't need one.

This may be true, but my concern is that if you are in the country on FLR or ILR....could a fine, even a wrongful one, cause problems later?

Apparently these things, and things like train fare disputes, aren't recordable offences, but are you required lo list them on applications? I don't think you are, but am not sure.

It is again a peculiar stance for the immigrant, we may have the law on our side, but pragmatically speaking, we may be held to a different standard.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2016, 09:32:09 PM »
sonofasailor, I can appreciate not wanting to venture into (what may appear to be) a grey area when you're on a visa. But this is not a grey area.

You can be fined only if you watch or record live TV without a licence, and there is proof that you've actually done so (for example, if a TV Licensing representative comes to your home and sees or hears a switched-on TV). They would then fill in form TVL178 (Record of Interview) with your personal details and ask you to sign it - this is as good as a signed confession that you're watching TV illegally, and it's all they need to take you to court and/or fine you.

Without a signed form, they can't do anything.

The OP stated that he doesn't watch any TV so he is under no obligation to inform anyone that he doesn't need a licence nor has he anything to fear.


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 09:03:34 AM »
Charmaine, thanks for the clarity. This has always intrigued me.

Just as an aside, the way I see it, the fee model is completely obsolete. So situations like this occur when someone keeps trying to make an outdated system work.

I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 12:51:31 PM »
Thank you all for the very useful and insightful replies. It's good news too, 140 odd pounds that will be put to better use  :D

I rather agree with sonofasailor about the obsolescence of this way of doing things. I find it really interesting that countries with very different approaches to taxes and to the public sector in general end up having such similar systems for tv licensing. In France tv licensing is paid along with what would be council tax in the UK, on an opt-out basis. This makes a lot of people likely to pay when they don't need to, either because they're already paying for it in their main home (there's supposed to be a substantial discount on your secondary residences if i remember correctly), or because someone else is already paying for them at their home (has most chances to happen when kids stay t home but make enough money to start their own tax reports). If you opt out, you agree to have controllers show up to your door, not sure about whether you have to let them in or anything. As i said, owning a tv is enough to owe the tax. In Germany it is actually including radio stations as well, and for them owning a radio is enough to have to pay, let along a tv. Actually even having a laptop is enough. There seems to be a rather nasty campaign of controls too and it is becoming virtually impossible to avoid paying it once you're on their radar - at least that's what locals were telling me there.

That's for differences. But in both countries the system has been revised fairly recently - the past decade, say. The goal was to adapt and absolutely not to try and phase the thing out. They are both trying, rather successfully, to expand dramatically the number of people actually paying the tax - in France before that reform it was an independent tax on an opt-in basis, and about 1/3 of the people estimated to owe it were actually paying it.
And it's also interesting that the amount to be paid is very similar, a little higher for Germany perhaps, a little lower for France. It is, unlike other taxes, not linked to income at all. Although perhaps very low income people may get out of it, and I know that in France rather broad categories of disabled people are exempt as well. It not linked to a number of people watching either, but on a "per home" basis, in all three countries. The tax does not stop, but limits somewhat compared to private channels, the recourse to commercials in France and even more so in Germany. Don't know about that in the UK actually.

And I also have to say that in all three countries, what you get from it is very decent in quality, and would be greatly missed by a majority of locals if it were to be replaced entirely by private sector television/radio.

I wasn't planning on writing an essay, sorry  ;D
It just is really interesting that you find something so similar and seemingly outdated in these relatively different countries. Thanks again for the answers!


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 01:13:25 PM »
I grew up in the UK and always thought the TV detector vans were very Orwellian. Still the TV license fee is a tax to fund the BBC and given how much the BBC has contributed to my education and enjoyment over the years it seems like pretty good value to me.

Originally the TV license fee meant that only people with TVs were paying for the BBC.....so there was an automatic opt out of BBC funding for those that didn't watch it. Now that viewing technologies and patterns have changed the funding mechanism needs to be updated. I would like to see it funded from general taxation.


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2016, 05:55:50 PM »
And I also have to say that in all three countries, what you get from it is very decent in quality, and would be greatly missed by a majority of locals if it were to be replaced entirely by private sector television/radio.

To me things like these David Attenborough nature specials are nearing an art form. The last couple of series have been of such high cinematographic quality, and I am glad they have been including a little documentary at the end as to how they go about capturing these scenes.

But then, if it rains or the wind blows too hard (which let's face it....England), I have to crawl up in the attic and move an antenna around. Which reminds me of watching the '72 Olympics or Watergate back in Florida in my youth. Perhaps some tin foil might help...

If only there was a cable running into my house delivering a nice stream of data....
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2016, 11:36:54 AM »
I grew up in the UK and always thought the TV detector vans were very Orwellian.

I had no clue about these, looked it up... amazing! Seems like people still don't know whether they have ever been a real thing. Here's a few theories exposed [nofollow] (and I'm guessing a few trolls). Thanks for this, it was a great little break :)


About the antenna thing, can you really not get the regular channels through ISP's? Back home this has been standard for a decade, the only limiting factor being internet speed for people living out of cities. But to be fair, you do pay a tiny bit more than in the UK to get internet at home, as they pretty much all force you to take bundles, internet+phone+tv (with the channels you can get through aerial plus a bunch of free channels that you could only get via cable or satellite before).


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2016, 11:51:10 AM »
Is your TV only used to watch DVDs or things like that? 

I hope the OP is not saying that he just doesn't watch the BBC so therefore doesn't want to pay the license fee.  Even if you watch sky all the time, you've still got to pay.


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2016, 11:52:07 AM »
About the antenna thing, can you really not get the regular channels through ISP's? Back home this has been standard for a decade, the only limiting factor being internet speed for people living out of cities. But to be fair, you do pay a tiny bit more than in the UK to get internet at home, as they pretty much all force you to take bundles, internet+phone+tv (with the channels you can get through aerial plus a bunch of free channels that you could only get via cable or satellite before).

I hear a lot of people who know a lot about these things talking at lengths about deals and bundles and this and that. It confuses me completely.

I am suspicions of anything that seems like a "good deal" because these guys are clever....they are in it to maximise profit...so any "good deal" is probably in reality the sucker's choice.
I just hope that more people will ignore the fatalism of the argument that we are beyond repair. We are not beyond repair. We are never beyond repair. - AOC


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Re: TV licensing opt out
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2016, 05:20:50 PM »
I took the high road, logged in their website and made a "No Licence Needed Declaration" - yes, all capitalized, it's that serious - rather than just not paying or responding until they come talk to me.

You end up having to declare why you don't need a licence, between a series of choices including not owning a tv-watching-capable device, owning one but using it only for video games, and only watching on-demand and replays.

I went for the "video games" one, even though i don't play video games on my tv. To respond to jimbocz, I do not watch any live tv, except for some sports events once in a while which will be in pubs - it has been in pubs so far, since there doesn't seem to be much of that on non-pay tv anyway. We literally paid this past year's licence for the eurovision song contest due to my usually better but on this particular occasion not so much half, and a show where people scout for their next house on the day I set up tv through air. I have seen better use of 140 pounds ;D


It seems that "only watching replays" is soon to require you to have a licence as well, but I am unsure as to whether that will also include on-demand, pay per view or streaming like netflix or hulu. It seems logical that it would not, but logic does not appear to be the main force at play there...

Thanks again for everyone's input!


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