Just bought my daughters a book with a very feminist outlook

I personally don't like Clinton, the fact that a lot of her campaign funds come from really shady sources like dictators and other unsavoury world leaders is horrifying.

What are some of the policies of theirs that you don't like?

Also, Jimbocz didn't say everyone's dislike of Obama and H Clinton was due to racism and sexism, but that 'so many people's' is. I'm not sure what the rough breakdown of that would be as I'm sure the amounts would vary person to person, but in my mind that's probably 60-75%? A good majority at least.

As to racism... We are seeing, because of Donald Trump's campaign, that there is a LOT more racism in the US towards blacks, hispanics & latinos (they're different), Muslims and other minorities that many of us didn't realise was still a major factor. If you've read Harper Lee's To Set a Watchmen, you may be feeling a bit like the Scout character. (It's not a well written book by any means, but it was the precursor to To Kill a Mockingbird.)

Yes.

Bigotry still exists. Go to the Fox news website and look at the comments. To what degree does that affect things? I have no idea.

But it is complex. Watching a beastly show here called Immigration Street, they interviewed this older, white English couple who lived in an area experiencing a pretty high level of recent immigration.

Immediately I pegged them as bigots for the things they said. But listening to them, they expressed this feeling of no longer belonging....in  a community they had lived all of their lives. The languages they heard on the streets, the smells of the cooking....the corner shop changing.

I remember watching those town hall meetings regarding the Affordable Health Care Act.....such anger. But many were people with medical conditions...and they felt their level of care was being threatened.

I think on an individual level, I can't disregard their feelings. And I can't ignore that humans may have a natural bias towards "sameness".

But also, we, as humans, have the rarest of gifts, the ability to use reason and empiricism to address these things.

And with that in mind, when I hear talk of "Let's just build a wall to keep them out" it strikes me first of all that on a pragmatic level, it's silly. Walls don't work. Too, it ignores the reality of movement. People have forever moved about. They will continue to do so. In our modern world, movement is now easier than ever.

How can I then support someone, when they disregard rationality?

I won't get into all the policies I don't agree with.....if be here all night. But for the affordable health care, do you know how much it would have cost my husband and i a month, 2 healthy, never need to go to the doctors people? $1,500. There is NOTHING affordable about that.

Yes there is racism and bigotry. Every race and religion had bigots and racists.  And I know that doesn't make it ok. But saying that most people who don't support Obama are racists is not factual. That's like saying most Muslims are terrorists or  most Americans are rude or most Jamaicans smoke pot. Generalisations are damaging.

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Personally I didn't take it as "most people who don't support x are bigots". He said "visceral hatred."  To me, that doesn't refer to people with well thought rational reasons for not supporting a politician on their policies. That speaks to the reactionary nonsense we see so much of in Trump, his supporters, Fox News, and obviously sexist crap like asking how Hilary could possibly balance being a grandmother and president. As if no other president has ever had grandchildren while in office.

I know that's certainly the sentiment I was expressing my agreement with. I  respect people's well thought and informed opinions on the issues, even if I disagree.  I'm perfectly fine with people not supporting a person I support based on facts.


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From The Impact of Anti-Black Racism on Approval of Barack Obama’s Job Performance and on Voting in the 2012 Presidential Election , Stanford:

"Consistent with past research (Sniderman & Carmines, 1997; Tesler & Sears,
2010b), explicit anti-Black attitudes were more common among Republicans than
among Democrats in all years.  In 2008, the proportion of people expressing anti-
Black attitudes was 31% among Democrats, 49% among independents, and 71%
among Republicans, highly significant differences (p<.001).  In 2012, the proportion
of people expressing anti-Black attitudes was 32% among Democrats, 48% among
independents, and 79% among Republicans, again highly significant differences."

You know I used to party on Saturday nights.....is this what it has come to?

Also, I have to tip my hat to lyonaria for a pretty close estimate...even if she was referring to slightly different parameters..

but in my mind that's probably 60-75%? A good majority at least.

I don't put much stock into polls. Not once have I ever been asked my opinion on anything for the likes of a poll. If you are smart enough, you can make your poll say what you want...it's all in wording.

Heck, my friends who are also republicans, please don't hate me, don't agree with me on everything.

And just for the absolute record, I'm not a trump supporter, or a full Tory supporter.......I'm a union rep also. I don't follow any party fully, I just tend to side more with republicans. I believe in helping those who need it, but believe we need to stop benefit cheats. Just for example.

I just really hate generalisations.....on either side or for any cause

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I don't put much stock into polls. Not once have I ever been asked my opinion on anything for the likes of a poll. If you are smart enough, you can make your poll say what you want...it's all in wording.

And just for the absolute record, I'm not a trump supporter, or a full Tory supporter.......I'm a union rep also. I don't follow any party fully, I just tend to side more with republicans. I believe in helping those who need it, but believe we need to stop benefit cheats. Just for example.

I just really hate generalisations.....on either side or for any cause

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I agree with you on polls. You can ask your any question in the right way to get the answer you want. They're basically full of sh*t. Unless you can see the actual questions someone asked to get that figure it's worthless. (I'm a mass comm major and I refuse to take part in polls for that reason.)

And I have to say... I believe we should stop benefit cheats as well and I'm more of an independent.

And I agree that how the Obamacare Act has been put into place is sh*t. I couldn't afford health insurance when I lived in the US, my parents can't afford health insurance and they don't have it in the States.

If they truly made universal healthcare like here in the UK or in Canada, it would be a good thing. But no... it's 'Communism' or 'Socialist' to give healthcare to everyone. People are saying the exact same things about Universal healthcare as they said about Social Security back when it was being up for the vote.

If healthcare wasn't 'Big business' and being treated like the massive cash cow it is... Well, health insurance wouldn't be so expensive. You can't blame Obama for the fact that doctors, hospitals and other health care professionals charge even more money to insurance companies for the same services than for people paying out of pocket. Now you could tell me that the health insurance companies are helping to subsidize the people who pay cash, and you may be right. But do the drugs/tests/scan readings and all that jazz really need to be that expensive? Or is it all about the profits?

Well, here are the first three statements:

“Irish, Italians, Jewish, and other minorities overcame prejudice and worked
their way up. Blacks should do the same without special favors.”

“Generations of slavery have created conditions that make it difficult for
Blacks to work their way out of the lower class.”

“It’s really a matter of some people just not trying hard enough; if Blacks
would only try harder, they could be just as well off as whites.”

Now bearing in mind that this is a study from Stanford, the University of Michigan and the University of Chicago - not GM or the Democratic Party - I am wondering what sort of objection someone could raise.

The first question for instance....."Irish, Italians, Jewish, and other minorities overcame prejudice and worked their way up. Blacks should do the same without special favors," I'm thinking that if you agree strongly with this....as did quite a few people, then you just might be a bit of a bigot. Anyone with any knowledge of history and economics would have to say, "Hold on.....I can't get fully behind that....it's not that simple". Supporting that statement would show that the respondent was relying on something other than rationalism.

The second question is of interest. 

The third question....again.....supporting that.....I would have to rate you up on the bigot scale...as did apparently the people conducting this study.

Too, I would remind those who brush aside these things with a cavalier swipe....during the last UK general election, there was a cataclysmic failure in regards to polling. It was shocking. They missed by 3 percentage points.

If these guys from this study mucked up that badly....it still paints a pretty bleak picture.

AlisonR got it right, and others who defended what I said.   I'm talking about the people that think that Obama is a secret Muslum who actually hates this country.  That's what I mean by visceral hatred.  Of course you can disagree with political ideas all you want without being racist.  That's not what I said.

Why would someone fight to be President twice if they hate America?