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Topic: Foreign Tax Credit Relief: Determining US Tax Paid? Or revise US return?  (Read 5630 times)

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Let's imagine a large hypothetical example. Say you make a gain of $1 million on shares in Marks & Spencer plc on 1 June 2016.  If you are on the paid basis you pay all of the UK CGT to HMRC by 31 December 2016 and you'd owe no US income tax on the gain because the tax you paid at the UKs 28% rate is higher than the US 20% rate on long-term gains.  (For completeness, it is worth saying you'd doubtless still owe NIIT).

If you were on the accrued method the accrual could not be claimed until the 2017 return as the gain arose in the 2016-17 UK tax year, leading to significant cashflow problems, as you'd have to pay both the IRS and HMRC long before possibly amending the 2017 US return during 2018 to carry back excess foreign tax credit from 2017.
Hi guya,
I didn't know you could pay cgt in the previous year the gain was made? However the problem with not using the accrual is if you receive something in December you wouldn't pay cgt until the following year in the UK (same UK tax year though) so you would front a large tax bill to the irs then have to claim it back the following year. So what is the difference?

Thanks,
J

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I'm still really struggling to get my head around this example but perhaps this is a misunderstanding of what accrual means.

My understanding of accrued tax would be you owe tax on say a gain but it hasn't been paid yet in that US tax year. Perhaps that is wrong?
 So let's take the above example and actually assume because the gains of $1m were made on June 1st 2016 that no UK CGT is due until December 2017  (is this not correct? As the gains were made in the 2016-17 UK tax year, the tax wouldn't be owed by self assessment until the end of that tax year and the filing deadlines in the UK, ie Dec 31st 2017?). However, the gains accrued in the calendar year of 2016 which us the US tax year. Correct? So the tax wasn't paid on 2016, but it accrued as the gain was made in 2016.

So what is so bad (assuming the above is correct) in claiming a FTC using the accrual method on your US tax return for that amount of tax you owe by Dec 2017 to HMRC but have yet to pay? I'm not sure I see why that is a disadvantage? But maybe my understanding of the accrual method is wrong, but that to me is the definition of the word "accrual".

Where am I going wrong?

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Quote
You can claim the credit for a qualified foreign
tax in the tax year in which you pay it or accrue
it, depending on your method of accounting.
“Tax year” refers to the tax year for which your
U.S. return is filed, not the tax year for which
your foreign return is filed.
Accrual method of accounting. If you use an
accrual method of accounting, you can claim
the credit only in the year in which you accrue
the tax. You are using an accrual method of accounting
if you report income when you earn it,
rather than when you receive it, and you deduct
your expenses when you incur them, rather
than when you pay them.
In most cases, foreign taxes accrue when all
the events have taken place that fix the amount
of the tax and your liability to pay it. Generally,
this occurs on the last day of the tax year for
which your foreign return is filed.

From this I understand that the accrued method would mean that if you in the US tax year of 2016, made a gain in the UK let's say in November 2016, you have not paid, but have accrued CGT on that gain which is due to be paid sometime after April 2017.

Now if you made this gain in 2016 in the UK but paid no tax, you could not offset the tax paid on your US tax return if you used the "paid" method, surely? As it has not been paid in 2016 for which you are filing the US Tax return.

Therefore, if this gain was significant and you were using the paid basis, you would have to pay the IRS for your 2016 return a large sum of tax, and then claim that as a refund in 2017, which is the year you actually paid the UK CGT.

However my understanding of the above is that the accrued method means that because you received the gain in 2016, you have a known accrued amount (assuming you calculate it correctly) of tax that has not yet been paid, but will be in 2017. So to avoid paying this tax to the US, you would file using the accrued method on your 1116 Part II and use that as a FTC to remove the liability for US tax. You would then pay your UK CGT in 2017, but you couldn't then claim that tax for FTCs on your 2017 US Tax return. However, that is not a problem as the gain was not made in 2017.

So why is the accrual method a poor choice? I do not understand your example where you say that the accrual method could not be claimed until 2017 - this sounds like the scenario that you would find yourself in with the "paid" method and exactly what the "accrued" method is trying to avoid.

As quoted from the IRS publication you stated:

Quote
You are using an accrual method of accounting
if you report income when you earn it,
rather than when you receive it, and you deduct
your expenses when you incur them, rather
than when you pay them.

So if you earn a gain in 2016, you report that gain. However you have incurred a tax, so using the accrual method you account that for 2016 US tax return, even if not paid. It sounds from your previous post as you are suggesting the opposite?

Thanks,
J


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Re: Foreign Tax Credit Relief: Determining US Tax Paid? Or revise US return?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 10:31:21 AM »
I am UK resident/citizen. Gave up US green card in 2015. I file Self-Assessment in UK. No filing in US. All my US income ( Social Security etc..) is filed/ taxed in UK. I have a question on the US tax withholding on dividends. Fidelity withholds 15% on the dividends, because of tax treaty.  I declared this in the 2016-17 SA form in UK. I had hoped to get credit for the 15%. However, this did not happen. I enquired with HMRC, and they explained that since the US dividends fell within the UK tax allowance for dividends, they do not give credit. They suggested I try to get refund from IRS. I enquired with a US tax advisor. They suggested that I can file 1040NR. However, that only applies if the amount withheld was 30%. The best I would then get back is 15%. In other words, since Fidelity withheld 15% only, there is no point filing, and the IRS get to keep that. Does not sound right! Does any one have experience with this?


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Re: Foreign Tax Credit Relief: Determining US Tax Paid? Or revise US return?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 02:20:09 PM »
I am UK resident/citizen. Gave up US green card in 2015. I file Self-Assessment in UK. No filing in US. All my US income ( Social Security etc..) is filed/ taxed in UK. I have a question on the US tax withholding on dividends. Fidelity withholds 15% on the dividends, because of tax treaty.  I declared this in the 2016-17 SA form in UK. I had hoped to get credit for the 15%. However, this did not happen. I enquired with HMRC, and they explained that since the US dividends fell within the UK tax allowance for dividends, they do not give credit. They suggested I try to get refund from IRS. I enquired with a US tax advisor. They suggested that I can file 1040NR. However, that only applies if the amount withheld was 30%. The best I would then get back is 15%. In other words, since Fidelity withheld 15% only, there is no point filing, and the IRS get to keep that. Does not sound right! Does any one have experience with this?
You had said in an earlier post that you left the US in April 2015. Did you not see the same 15% liability on your dual status 2015 US return for dividends paid during the non-US resident period?


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Re: Foreign Tax Credit Relief: Determining US Tax Paid? Or revise US return?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 05:59:32 PM »

Yes, I did see the same 15% liability on the dual status 2015 US return for Dividends for the NR period. I reported these in the SA form, and HMRC allowed 10% credit ( as they do for dividends from UK companies), before taxing the rest. I should note that for the tax year 2015/16 there was no generous tax free allowance. For 2016/17 the tax free allowance on dividends was £5000. Since the dividends I got from US for 2016 were less than £5000, nothing was taxed in UK....hence no justification for credit from HMRC. That is why HMRC suggested I try to get refund from IRS.


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Re: Foreign Tax Credit Relief: Determining US Tax Paid? Or revise US return?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2017, 08:22:46 AM »
There is no refund due from the IRS. You filed a W-8BEN to (correctly) reduce the tax rate to 15%.


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