MAC report out today. Immigration system after Brexit.

2017
"The Home Office has today commissioned the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to report on the impact on the UK labour market of the UK’s exit from the European Union and how the UK’s immigration system should be aligned with a modern industrial strategy."

"The Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) is an independent public body that provides transparent, independent and evidence-based advice to the government on migration issues.

The government has set a deadline of September 2018 to report back on the commission. The MAC will consider producing interim responses for the government to ensure the report can support policy development

In the next few weeks the MAC will produce a call for evidence, which will be available on the MAC website. The MAC will engage with government, business, trade unions and other interested parties to ensure a high quality evidence based response to the commission."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/migration-advisory-committee-mac-commissioned-by-government


Lots in the press on the report-

"EU Immigrants to UK After Brexit Should Not Have Special Treatment"

"We do not see compelling reasons to offer a different set of rules to EEA and non-EEA citizens unless the UK wishes to use migration in negotiations,"
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-09-18/uk-should-not-offer-eu-citizens-preferential-immigration-post-brexit-official-report

Good news for the highly skilled workers who want a Tier 2 General visa (quota presently set at 20,700 per year) and for some medium skilled workers; who find an employer to sponsor them to the UK.

"If you want to influence flows it is much better to vary things like the salary thresholds and the immigration skills charge than it is to have hard caps and quotas,"


Basically it was what the government  has been saying anyway,  that all immigrants to the UK should be treated the same.

The government does not have carry out all they say e.g. The MAC reported before that the UK should end the - those with a Tier 4 visa do not need a RLMT for a Tier 2 General, but to date, that has not been implemented.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the report that wouldn't fit in with the UK's, Australian sytle, Points Based visa system, including the temporary visas for the low skilled.

Well that's good, because someone has to pick the fruit and veg, after all, right? The farmers are hurting as it is because they can't get the manual labor. So setting a system in place that would bring manual laborers in and set up a win for them would be a win for the farmers.

They HAD a Highly Skilled MIgrants Programme not 10 years ago that was points based but that got canned... oh who knows why anymore. Or rather, turned into Tier 1 General) which is now closed too. That resembled Canada's system the most, so I don't know why they don't just resurrect it, but this time not move the goalposts for those who are admitted (or rather, not look for ways to deny people).

They HAD a Highly Skilled MIgrants Programme not 10 years ago that was points based but that got canned... oh who knows why anymore. Or rather, turned into Tier 1 General) which is now closed too. That resembled Canada's system the most, so I don't know why they don't just resurrect it, but this time not move the goalposts for those who are admitted (or rather, not look for ways to deny people).

Do you mean the so called, highly skilled migrant visa called Tier 1 (General), that the independent body The MAC, found that most of these could not get a graduate job in the UK? That's why that visa ended as soon as it did. As one barrister said, it was the highly skilled visa for those that were not highly skilled at anything much.

There is still the Tier 2 General visa for the highly skilled. And two Tier 1 visas for the highly skilled.

Well that's good, because someone has to pick the fruit and veg, after all, right? The farmers are hurting as it is because they can't get the manual labor. So setting a system in place that would bring manual laborers in and set up a win for them would be a win for the farmers.

Medium skilled will be tradespersons., who will need a visa to come to the UK. Usually means they must find a job before they get the visa that allows them to come to the UK.

The MAC said that there is no need for low skilled visas. The UK used to have a Tier 3 visa for the low skilled but it was never used due to the EU's "Free movement".

The UK already has a points based visa caller Tier 5, for some of the low skilled, if they are under age 30 and don't have children. These are a temporary visa for up to 2 years; they can't bring family and cannot have UK benefits, they pay for the visa and pay the IHS.

In the late 90s, I used to live near one of these places that needed seasonal pickers. The wages then were much more than shop workers got, or they would not have got pickers. The pickers early in the season, were mothers who dropped their children off at school and then did 4 hours picking and they said they got double the wage for bank holidays. By the school holidays, the mothers then left and the university students took over, together with those non-EEA citizens on the Tier 5 temporary visas to the UK e.g. Australians and Kiwis. Supply and demand pushed the wages down and put that cost onto the welfare state e.g. benefits like the Tax Credit benefit for those on low income. Universty students and those under UK immigration rules, cannot have benefits.

The UK did say they would end the tax allowance for temporary workers who come for the picking season, as they never pay/paid very litlte in income tax, but used the services.  I don't know if their tax allowance has ended, but the UK brought in the 2 child limit for UK benefits so that "Germany, France and Sweden would give more benefits for children". And the new Welfare Reform laws seem to have manged to overturn the European Court of Justice Ruling in a case where these took took the UK to that court, which will end the Child Tax Credit benefit (about £65 per child, per week) going to their children in their own EEA country. Even if they return to the UK to pick and bring their children, under the Welfare reforns, there is a 2 year wait now if they have claimed UK benefits before. All this was planned before the UK voted to leave the EU, as these laws take years to go through.

I assume that means the  pickers and others the UK says are low skilled, age 18 - 30,  might have the same temporary visa offered that some non-EEA citizens can have???

Some highly skilled enter on a the temporary Tier 5 youth mobilty visa,  work in a highly skillled job and then get their employer to sponsor them for a Tier 2 General visas, subject to that visa requirements..

Apparently it's not the 1990s anymore.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40354331   "UK summer fruit and salad growers are having difficulty recruiting pickers, with more than half saying they don't know if they will have enough migrant workers to harvest their crops." (2017)

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7987/CBP-7987.pdf    "Witnesses to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (EFRA) Committee inquiry into labour shortages in the agriculture and horticulture sectors reiterated the industry’s dependence on workers from abroad. Those giving evidence were unanimous in their view that efforts at increasing the number of workers recruited from within the UK have failed to meet the sectors’ demands.2" (2017)

https://www.nfuonline.com/news/brexit-news/eu-referendum-news/drop-in-seasonal-workers-leaves-some-farms-critically-short/   "Numbers of seasonal workers coming to work on British farms have dropped 17%, leaving some businesses critically short of people to harvest fruit and veg, a new survey by the NFU shows. The survey of labour providers shows they are currently unable to recruit sufficient workers to meet growers’ needs during the busy harvesting season, leaving more than 1,500 unfilled vacancies on British farms in May alone. The NFU is calling on the government and newly-appointed Defra Secretary of State Michael Gove to provide reassurances to growers that there will be clarity on how farms will access a reliable and competent workforce, both today and post-Brexit." (2018)

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals   "Fruit and vegetable farms across the UK were left short of thousands of migrant workers in 2017, leaving some produce to rot in the fields and farmers suffering big losses. More than 4,300 vacancies went unfilled, according to new survey data from the National Farmers Union (NFU), which covers about half the horticultural labour market. The survey, seen exclusively by the Guardian, shows more than 99% of the seasonal workers recruited came from eastern Europe, with just 0.6% from the UK."   (2018)

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-impact-uk-farming-farms-robots-economy   "Since the referendum, G’s has needed to work thrice as hard – with an intense campaign of recruitment drives in Eastern Europe’s high-unemployment areas – to get a lower number of seasonal workers than it did pre-2016. Returnee workers, which in 2015 made up 72 per cent of the company’s seasonal workforce, accounted for 42 per cent of the whole in 2017. In 2015, Cross says, there was a waiting list of 750 people who wanted to come to work at G’s over summer; in 2017, there was no waiting list. Even if Cross thinks they might have managed to recruit enough workers for this year’s harvest, she will have to wait until May to see whether that is true." (2018)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-agriculture-farms-fruit-picking-migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html   "Just one per cent of farm workers are British. Most currently come from Eastern Europe,...." (2018)

etc.

I guess we'll find out, won't we?

Apparently it's not the 1990s anymore.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40354331   "UK summer fruit and salad growers are having difficulty recruiting pickers, with more than half saying they don't know if they will have enough migrant workers to harvest their crops." (2017)

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7987/CBP-7987.pdf    "Witnesses to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (EFRA) Committee inquiry into labour shortages in the agriculture and horticulture sectors reiterated the industry’s dependence on workers from abroad. Those giving evidence were unanimous in their view that efforts at increasing the number of workers recruited from within the UK have failed to meet the sectors’ demands.2" (2017)

https://www.nfuonline.com/news/brexit-news/eu-referendum-news/drop-in-seasonal-workers-leaves-some-farms-critically-short/   "Numbers of seasonal workers coming to work on British farms have dropped 17%, leaving some businesses critically short of people to harvest fruit and veg, a new survey by the NFU shows. The survey of labour providers shows they are currently unable to recruit sufficient workers to meet growers’ needs during the busy harvesting season, leaving more than 1,500 unfilled vacancies on British farms in May alone. The NFU is calling on the government and newly-appointed Defra Secretary of State Michael Gove to provide reassurances to growers that there will be clarity on how farms will access a reliable and competent workforce, both today and post-Brexit." (2018)

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals   "Fruit and vegetable farms across the UK were left short of thousands of migrant workers in 2017, leaving some produce to rot in the fields and farmers suffering big losses. More than 4,300 vacancies went unfilled, according to new survey data from the National Farmers Union (NFU), which covers about half the horticultural labour market. The survey, seen exclusively by the Guardian, shows more than 99% of the seasonal workers recruited came from eastern Europe, with just 0.6% from the UK."   (2018)

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-impact-uk-farming-farms-robots-economy   "Since the referendum, G’s has needed to work thrice as hard – with an intense campaign of recruitment drives in Eastern Europe’s high-unemployment areas – to get a lower number of seasonal workers than it did pre-2016. Returnee workers, which in 2015 made up 72 per cent of the company’s seasonal workforce, accounted for 42 per cent of the whole in 2017. In 2015, Cross says, there was a waiting list of 750 people who wanted to come to work at G’s over summer; in 2017, there was no waiting list. Even if Cross thinks they might have managed to recruit enough workers for this year’s harvest, she will have to wait until May to see whether that is true." (2018)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-agriculture-farms-fruit-picking-migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html   "Just one per cent of farm workers are British. Most currently come from Eastern Europe,...." (2018)

etc.

I guess we'll find out, won't we?

They will just have. to put the hourly wage back up to a decent rate. As I explained, that's how they got the pickers before.


Supply and dermand works both ways, it can reduce wages and it can raise wages.

The start of some  Europeans Eurpeans being allowed free movement to the UK, didn't start  until 2004. We didn't sit there starving before that, watching the food rot in the fields.

They will just have. to put the hourly wage back up to a decent rate. As I explained, that's how they got the pickers before.


Supply and dermand works both ways, it can reduce wages and it can raise wages.

Wages going up means cost of food also goes up. They aren't independent of each other. Its true in the US too that natives have no interest in hard farm work, the majority of migrant labor is foreign (either undocumented or on a visa). Increasing wages to a point that locals want to work for a farm in the current labor environment is very unlikely.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

That's kind of my thought. Pay enough to get your beans picked and you'd have to charge the commodities broker more than they can get from the supermarkets, because the public won't pay it in the end at the quantity of sale needed to sustain the whole chain. Someone along the line would be financially squeezed into non-existence, which would take the distribution chain down.

If there was a job near me where I didn't have to bend to pick, say, strawberries and I could get at least minimum wage (plus transportation to and from for free) I'd work a farm part-time. But there's not. So.... we'll see how it all falls out, won't we?

Wages going up means cost of food also goes up. They aren't independent of each other.

With the wages rising, the welfare bill drops. We pay for it either way, but at least the pickers and plantsmen/women, get a decent wage and are spared from having to ask the welfare state for help and jump though the welfare hoops Labour's "a fair days work for a fair days pay".

Its true in the US too that natives have no interest in hard farm work, the majority of migrant labor is foreign (either undocumented or on a visa). Increasing wages to a point that locals want to work for a farm in the current labor environment is very unlikely.

I don't know how it works in your country, but when the wages were higher than shop workers rates, Brits and those on temporary visas, picked. It was the same with the cream factory nearby at Christmas, never any problem getting Brits, young Aussies and Kiwis (on temporary visas) and international students to work there with the higher wages they offered. The same with the bars and food places in London. the staff were always young Aussies on temporary youth visas.

The MAC didn't recommend any ways to make it easy for low skilled workers to work in the UK, nor for the special treatment to continue for EEA citizens, unless the UK wants to offer that to EEA countriess as part of a trade deal. The UK already has points based visas as the government at the time, copied the Aussie system. That includes limited temporary visas for young low skilled workers, numbers which can be decreased or increased as required, but like other people using UK immigration rules, they pay for that visa, pay to use the NHS and can't have UK benefits.

Both Conservatives and Labour now saying they accept the MAC report of no more giving special treatment to EEA citizens.

For the low skilled workers, the MAC talked about the present Tier 5 Youth Mobilty visa:
only for those aged between 18 - 30 who don't have children
can't bring dependants  (they must apply for their own visa)
visa for up to 2 years and doesn't lead to settlement
can't have UK benefits
pay the IHS
limited number of visas per year
some need to have a work sponsor
etc
https://www.gov.uk/tier-5-youth-mobility


For the  highly skilled, still  the Tier 2 (General) visa and visas for tradespersons the UK has a shortage of - these can bring a partner/spouse and children under age 18; visa leads to settlement etc

If they are going to open up the Tier 5 Youth Mobilty visas after Brexit to all countries, that would make it easier for many on here who want to spend more time with a British girl/boyfriend, as it is a work visa and that salary can be used towards a family visas. Or for the those who want to try working and living in the UK for a while. Although they may mean they will open the Tier 5 YMS up to more countries under the same terms as now, a reciprocal agreement with another country.

No more giving special treatment to EEA citizens.

There is no such thing as "special treatment" for EU citizens. Freedom of Movement is a key foundation to the Treaties.