POLL - allowing diplomat's wife to flee to USA after hit and run killing

Yeah, they seem to have been sold on the idea that the 'diplomatic immunity' angle makes this a more heinous crime than it would otherwise be. As you say, Jimbo, the courts don't see it that way.

Here's another one:

https://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/crime/a-careless-derbyshire-motorist-gets-a-community-order-after-causing-the-death-of-a-pedestrian-1-10037393

[The driver] had pleaded not guilty to causing death by driving without due care and attention but a jury found him guilty. He was sentenced to a 12 month community order with 140 hours of unpaid work and he was banned from driving for 12 months.

Back to the case, while I understand the family being devastated - I certainly would be, too - the rational part of my brain wonders what anyone could possibly do that would give them a sense that justice has been done. If he'd been murdered that'd be different, but this was just a horrible accident.

Back to the case, while I understand the family being devastated - I certainly would be, too - the rational part of my brain wonders what anyone could possibly do that would give them a sense that justice has been done. If he'd been murdered that'd be different, but this was just a horrible accident.

I think that by now they are so caught up in the publicity and the media circus, they probably have no idea themselves what they want.

Another thing that doesn't seem to be getting said is that I doubt the driver is in a position to make any decisions here at all.  I'm sure that the case was handled by the state department and their lawyers, and she did and continues to do what she is told. 

Also, she didn't "hit and run" as the initial new reports claimed, she stayed to help the victim.  Apparently this was necessary because the ambulance didn't arrive "for a long time".  I wonder if the boy would have survived if the Tories hadn't cut the NHS to the bone.

Danicali!  Come back and argue with us, you seem to be missing.  Is the contract over?  вернись ты ужасный тролль

I think that by now they are so caught up in the publicity and the media circus, they probably have no idea themselves what they want.

Yes, and that's sad, too.

Another thing that doesn't seem to be getting said is that I doubt the driver is in a position to make any decisions here at all.  I'm sure that the case was handled by the state department and their lawyers, and she did and continues to do what she is told. 

Not only that, her fate is in the hands of President Expedient, who would happily hand her over if Fox News tells him it's a good idea. I can't imagine how awful it must be to be any of the main characters in this situation.

Danicali!  Come back and argue with us, you seem to be missing.  Is the contract over?  вернись ты ужасный тролль

Даже Fancy Bear получает отпускные дни!

 

I wonder what the family thinks will happen to the driver if she ever were to appear in a UK court?  As far as I know, sentences for killing someone with your car are incredibly light.  For example, here's a guy who was driving 60 mph in a 40 mph zone, talking on his phone and just about took out an entire volleyball team:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1457584/Driver-in-triple-death-crash-escapes-jail.html

He killed 3 people, seriously injured two, and his sentence was --
Jones, from Bournemouth, admitted driving without due care and attention and was given a £1,500 fine and banned from driving for five years.

I bet that family wouldn't be so happy if she actually did come back and was given a slap on the wrist like that.

And then there's this. It's old, I know.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/how-did-michael-delaney-die-mr-murdoch/

Edit:  Which, in thinking about it, remembering Michael serves no purpose in this thread - other than to say that things that should be quite often are not, and things that should never be quite often end up as the default.

I still think no good will come for that family from their misguided media campaign. And given that campaign, I'd say the woman couldn't get a fair trial at this point.

It should be noted that as of this morning the driver has not been charged with any crime.  Once that happens, then the request for extradition process should proceed. But the family going to the USA to try to use the media to force the driver to return to the UK, and the circus that will ensue here, when there are no charges brought, is seriously, seriously premature.  I'm really afraid that it's going to blow up on them.

Trump met the parents and they still don't seem happy:

https://www.apnews.com/325e8ca47dfc40eb914ca21b4073824f

I still can't figure out why Trump agreed to this. How does it benefit him if the parents have not even agreed to stop complaining?  I guess Trump is desperate for any news that isn't impeachment, but there must be some powerful force I haven't identified to make this story more important than it would seem.   Are Americans worried about this?  As far as I can tell, this has dropped off the news here in the UK.   

... there must be some powerful force I haven't identified to make this story more important than it would seem.   Are Americans worried about this?  As far as I can tell, this has dropped off the news here in the UK.

It feeds into that sense of righteous anger that The Sun and the Daily Mail use to sell newspapers. The facts of the case don't matter as much as how they can be spun into a story about a government employee of the mighty USA abusing diplomatic immunity in order to run down a bright young British lad in the prime of his life before fleeing back to America to avoid the shining beacon of justice that is the UK court system.

All the emotional quotes from the family, flights to the US, and meetings at the White House with Trump (and the guilty woman hiding in the next room!) are just shiny baubles to distract people from austerity, Brexit, and whatever else Rupert Murdoch would rather poor people in the UK not look at.

What Trump gets out of it I'm not sure. Probably makes him feel big and important to have the family begging him for justice while he also holds the driver's life in his hands. Or maybe the Russian agent who's running him told him to do it.

What Trump gets out of it I'm not sure. Probably makes him feel big and important to have the family begging him for justice while he also holds the driver's life in his hands.

Now I know a bit more, I'm  figuring out that Trump was running a reality show.  Surprising  the parents and having a big photo op and an emotional meeting while Trump resided over the whole thing like Jeremy Kyle.  I can see why that's more fun than getting measured for your prison issued orange jumpsuit. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-meeting-parents-british-teenager-harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas-a9157926.html?utm_source=reddit.com

Trump met the parents and they still don't seem happy:

https://www.apnews.com/325e8ca47dfc40eb914ca21b4073824f

I still can't figure out why Trump agreed to this. How does it benefit him if the parents have not even agreed to stop complaining?  I guess Trump is desperate for any news that isn't impeachment, but there must be some powerful force I haven't identified to make this story more important than it would seem.   Are Americans worried about this?  As far as I can tell, this has dropped off the news here in the UK.

It's still in the news here in the UK. I've seen it on BBC and ITV just today, and ABC News in the USA this morning. And it's on CNN online (I believe) tonight, as it's an opportunity to bash Trump, rightly or wrongly, and they just can't pass that up.

Trump did tell the family she would not be leaving the USA. That is not what they wanted to hear, for sure.  You know, initially just after the WH meeting the family was interviewed onscreen as saying they were startled and not ready to meet her without counselors, etc., being present. But that it wasn't completely unexpected as they thought maybe something like this might be going to happen, and had discussed it as they took the train down to DC. But that the President was very kind to them in the meeting, very warm and understanding, and that it had been a good meeting. 

Now today it's that they were "blindsided" and it was a publicity stunt by Trump. It may well have been. Or it may simply have been his usual MO - get a photo done for the press to prove it happened. But he was asked by both the family and the UK government to try to help with a meeting, and the UK government had been informed in advance of what he was doing. He made a meeting possible. The family declined the meeting they'd asked for. He's done what he can do.

[Dear God, am I actually defending Trump? End Days, for sure.]

Early on the parents said they were going to the USA saying they just wanted to meet her to know about his last moments, to have closure. It has seemed to, from what I see in the media (which is at best unreliable), have evolved into something else. Trump, at the family's request and Boris Johnson's request, agreed to try to do something to get a meeting set up. So he set one up, and they refused it because it didn't meet their terms of her going back to the UK. (No further talk of there needing to be counselors or mediators present, or of the meeting being to find out what happened and to get closure. Now it's all about  her going back to the UK for "justice". Because she didn't apologize soon enough. (?))

The parents have been asked to tone it down, as the driver and her family (with young children) are getting threats. They refused, with the mother saying she could understand how distressing it must be, but that they would continue until the driver returns to the UK. (If anything now happens to the driver or her family, their blood will be on the parents' hands. I take it they don't understand that the nutters in the USA have plenty of access to guns? Thanks to FaceBook, "causes" sprout like wildfire and there are plenty of unstable people out there who own them.)

So, in chatting with friends in the USA, it's been in the news there, making the rounds. But as the storyline morphs, the reaction (which I take to be generally sympathetic) may very well change. I'm picking that up a bit from people I talk to.  ITV tonight was still trotting out the "left the country without notice just days after the crash".  However, on CNN:

Earlier on Tuesday, her attorney, Amy Jeffress, released a statement expressing remorse for the tragedy. "Anne was driving on the wrong side of the road and is terribly, terribly sorry for that tragic mistake. Neither she nor Harry Dunn's family will ever be the same because of it. She wants to meet with the family to apologize and take responsibility." Jeffress says her client met with police twice -- on the day of the incident and at her home the following day. After providing a statement at the scene and meeting officers the next day, she had no further contact with the police, Jeffress said. "She and her family left the United Kingdom approximately three weeks after the accident, after they and the US authorities determined that it would be difficult for the couple and their children to remain in the small Croughton community under these tragic circumstances," the lawyer said. "Our understanding is that the British authorities were informed and aware of their departure before they returned to the United States," Jeffress added.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics/harry-dunn-family-white-house-meeting-trump-intl-gbr/index.html


It is probably time for the family to be flying home and letting the UK legal people take over. Assuming that the situation is not actually protecting something or someone in the British Intelligence system, I would expect charges to be filed and extradition requested. The driver has still not been charged with any criminal act. If her being retained in the USA protects something of US national interest, she will not be leaving. It is sad, if that is the case, for the family. But they will tear themselves to pieces throwing themselves at that. And will gain nothing, in the end.

This is so sad, all around.

But he was asked by both the family and the UK government to try to help with a meeting, and the UK government had been informed in advance of what he was doing. He made a meeting possible. The family declined the meeting they'd asked for. He's done what he can do.

Do you have a source that you can quote that confirms that the UK government asked for a meeting with Trump? I know that he said he had called Boris Johnson who had asked if he would meet the parents but I don't believe a word he says. If the PM's office confirm that Boris asked Trump to meet the parents then I will believe it.

I have never seen the parents ever state anything other than they would meet the diplomat's wife on UK soil. Obviously in his great wisdom he thought that bringing them both together in the WH would change their minds and give him a great distraction from Turkey and Ukraine.

Do you have a source that you can quote that confirms that the UK government asked for a meeting with Trump? I know that he said he had called Boris Johnson who had asked if he would meet the parents but I don't believe a word he says. If the PM's office confirm that Boris asked Trump to meet the parents then I will believe it.

I have never seen the parents ever state anything other than they would meet the diplomat's wife on UK soil. Obviously in his great wisdom he thought that bringing them both together in the WH would change their minds and give him a great distraction from Turkey and Ukraine.

This go fund me page has a bit about that meeting.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/Justice4harry

Do you have a source that you can quote that confirms that the UK government asked for a meeting with Trump? I know that he said he had called Boris Johnson who had asked if he would meet the parents but I don't believe a word he says. If the PM's office confirm that Boris asked Trump to meet the parents then I will believe it.

This go fund me page has a bit about that meeting.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/Justice4harry

I think he meant a credible news outlet.

I think he meant a credible news outlet.

Exactly.

Do you have a source that you can quote that confirms that the UK government asked for a meeting with Trump? I know that he said he had called Boris Johnson who had asked if he would meet the parents but I don't believe a word he says. If the PM's office confirm that Boris asked Trump to meet the parents then I will believe it.

I have never seen the parents ever state anything other than they would meet the diplomat's wife on UK soil. Obviously in his great wisdom he thought that bringing them both together in the WH would change their minds and give him a great distraction from Turkey and Ukraine.

Where did I see it? Couldn't say, without doing a massive Google search and even then might not find it again if it was on TV. I tend to confine my viewing to BBC, CNN, ABC, MSNBC, RTE, ITV, and STV. Now and then I watch Reuters and Al Jazeera. My online sources are pretty much the same - I tend to discount UK newspapers, but occasionally read the Herald up here, and the Independent to see what the indyref people are up to.  I did see an interview (video) with the family where they wanted to meet with Trump.  I did see a short video clip where Boris was saying he had asked for Trump to help, that there'd been a conversation. The precise text of the conversation between Trump and Boris - who knows? Interestingly, from what I've read (and again, the media is not a trustworthy source of information, but is all I've got) it was Boris's office who released the driver's name (and photos?). I wonder what's at play there? Raab told the family the driver wasn't coming back, supposedly in a rather "cold" manner that the family didn't like. So... left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing/saying? Or typical of London? Egads.

Trump has all the finesse of a rabid walrus, true, but the family said they wanted to meet him, that they wanted to meet with her, and they had also asked in the media for his help. So did Boris. So, he "helped". You don't get Trump involved without expecting him to act like Trump. I don't think he does anything altruistically, but he did make a meeting possible.  Which they said that they thought might be coming, and still turned it down. Apparently the driver had no clue what was going on at all, but was sitting in another room after having spoken to Trump. A snap meeting wasn't exactly a kindness to her, either.  I don't blame the family one bit about not liking the cameras being there (that was totally crass), but they could have said "no cameras" and met with her if the meeting was so critically important to them for their emotional health and "closure" of their grief. Since they did not, I have to assume that making her "pay for what she did" is of more importance to them.  I understand their anger. It's still a tragic situation, and growing moreso daily.

It's probably a cultural difference at play, but the whole thing of only meeting with her on UK soil smacks of emotional blackmail, really. I don't blame them for trying it, as it's pretty much the only ammo they have - and it's not much. I know I felt awful for them early on when I saw a video of the mother saying she just wanted to meet the driver to know if her boy had been alone in a ditch or what had happened after the crash. That she  knew it was an accident, and that they knew the driver had young children and didn't want to take her away from them and were going to ask for the lightest possible penalties if it went to court. Etc. They just wanted some information so they could have "closure" and grieve properly. It was just heartbreaking to watch. I have very mixed feelings  now about it being all about making her pay for what she's done. I feel vaguely manipulated. I still understand their pain, but there's a point where it looks more like wanting revenge, which is rarely a good thing.

You know, my best guess is that the driver sat there for three weeks waiting for the police to return, was finally advised by the government to go home (and did so on a commercial flight, I think I read), and to do or say nothing, but funnel everything through them. I remember seeing (and this was in print somewhere) the local police being quoted as saying they'd stopped the investigation because they'd been told she had immunity.  So, she was sent back to the USA and probably told to wait for instructions. I hope she was able to go home to her family, and they haven't got her on a military installation somewhere for safe keeping. Although now, with the FaceBook nutters courtesy of the family's media push, she's probably on one. I would imagine that at some point she'll be "disappeared" and given a new name and identity. I would also bet the UK government was completely aware of what was happening, but didn't bother to tell the parents anything at all. They only found out later that she had gone and were given nothing more. Left hanging, flapping in the breeze.

How awful for them all, no matter what the case. 

This story has already had it's 15 minutes of fame.