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Topic: 401k => Roth IRA  (Read 4756 times)

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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2021, 04:39:31 PM »
Thanks @DaveB , @Ukraideruk & @durhamlad. Lots and lots to digest. Could you please help me solidify my understanding so far?

In summary:
  • Step 1 is to roll over the 401k to a traditional IRA and open a Roth IRA within the same provider for Step 2. This is exempt from taxes in both countries but it has to be reported as a non-taxable event when filing your tax returns in the States. Does my wife need to submit a self-assessment on the back of this in the U.K.?
  • Step 2 is to start converting the IRA amount to Roth IRA which adds to your taxable gross income but as she’s unemployed we could convert less than the standard deduction per year and not pay any tax. As far as I understand the standard deduction for married people filling separately is $12,550. So as long as we stay under that amount we won’t pay any taxes.
  • Step 3 is to withdraw the funds when she’s over 59.5 as a lump sum which will not be taxed in neither US, nor U.K. A bit confused here - if you withdraw this in chunks, it will be taxed in the U.K.?

Thanks very much
Kalo

"Does my wife need to submit a self-assessment on the back of this in the U.K.?" - No, because there is no income generated, it is simply moving retirement funds between two different custodians

"Step 3 is to withdraw the funds when she’s over 59.5 as a lump sum which will not be taxed in neither US, nor U.K. A bit confused here - if you withdraw this in chunks, it will be taxed in the U.K.?" You can withdraw from a Roth IRA in any size chunk you want because it is a tax free account in both the US and UK. You can choose to withdraw a sum every month if it suits you and NO tax is due in US or UK
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2021, 04:40:25 AM »
Like Durhamlad, I'm presuming your wife is a US citizen. I'm also presuming she has no after-tax contributions in her 401k (only pre-tax salary and matching employer contributions) .

Also a reminder that we're all self-educated self-help group around here as you dig deeper into things, you may find reaching out to a tax professional is worth the cost for peace of mind and tailored advise.

Step 1 is to roll over the 401k to a traditional IRA and open a Roth IRA within the same provider for Step 2.
Rolling over the 401k to a traditional IRA is not mandatory - you can make conversions directly from a 401k to the Roth IRA if you so desire (it's still a taxable event though, and the math is unchanged). However, unless your 401k is (a) with a large international employer who is used to dealing with international ex-employees, and (b) with the same provider your Roth IRA is/will-be with, I personally would roll the 401k over to a Traditional IRA first.

I would recommend making opening the Roth IRA the very first thing you do, before any of the other stuff.

This is exempt from taxes in both countries but it has to be reported as a non-taxable event when filing your tax returns in the States.
Yes, the rollover from a 401k to Traditional IRA is not a taxable event when done correctly*.
It does NOT need to be reported in either the UK or US tax returns (short of putting something in a comment box somewhere, I don't think you could even if you wanted to).

* i.e. it's actually executed as a direct rollover. MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THE ROLLOVER IS EXECUTED AS A DIRECT ROLLOVER. A direct rollover digitally moves the contents across. Otherwise, they just issue you a cheque. You only have 60 days from issue in which to get that cheque into the Traditional IRA before it gets considered a withdrawal (which is (a) taxable and (b) can no longer be put back in a retirement fund). 60 days sounds a lot, but it's not if international postal times are involved or there's a problem. If something goes wrong and you get a cheque, whatever you do, DO NOT CASH IT. Even if your intent is to immediately transfer the money from your account into the IRA. The cheque itself has to go to the IRA plan administrators. If you do anything else with it, it magically becomes a distribution - a taxable event that no genie can put back into the bottle.

The vast number of people never have a problem with a rollover, but the consequences of it going wrong are bad so you want to watch the process like a hawk.

Does my wife need to submit a self-assessment on the back of this in the U.K.?
No (unless they issue you a cheque which you don't deposit in the Traditional IRA as noted above).

Step 2 is to start converting the IRA amount to Roth IRA which adds to your taxable gross income but as she’s unemployed we could convert less than the standard deduction per year and not pay any tax. As far as I understand the standard deduction for married people filling separately is $12,550. So as long as we stay under that amount we won’t pay any taxes.
Married Filing Separately (MFS) is a slightly odd beast as for couples with equal incomes it shouldn't make a difference and for couples with unequal income MFJ should always result in less tax than filing separately. A typical use of MFS for example is when one partner doesn't want to sign off on the finances of another (due to fraud, undergoing divorce, etc). The other, as I think you've found, is when a US citizen is married to a non-resident alien (NRA).

In an earlier reply I said typically you wouldn't need to file a tax return if you were under your deduction, and gave a link to the full rules. Unfortunately, one of the exceptions listed in the full rules is MFS - I guess they really worried about US resident couples hiding partner income. As a result, the worldwide income threshold for having to file a US tax return when filing MFS is a miserly $5 (yes five whole dollars!).
 
It's not something I've looked into, but I would expect as long as she stayed under the standard deduction, it would still be zero tax.

However, depending on your (not hers) circumstances, you may want to consider filing jointly, even if you are a non-resident alien (NRA) who otherwise wouldn't be involved in the US tax system. According to this article: https://www.americansabroad.org/nonamerican-spouse-us-tax-implications/) you can opt in to being taxed by America. Then the first $108,700 of your UK salary could be completely offset by the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion and your wife could then take advantage of the $25,100 Married Filing Jointly standard deduction.

If you go this route, you'd definitely need to get a tax professional to validate the plan and to prepare (at least the first year) of your US tax returns. Some UK investments that would otherwise be safe for a NRA to hold became a reporting and/or tax inefficient on US returns, so that may be a showstopper. Specifically ISAs are not tax protected in the US. PFIC stocks (mutual funds etc) are taxed very heavily by the US, and are so difficult to report, US tax preparer charge thousands of additional dollars for returns that include them. These are all problems a US citizen living in the UK has, so your solution would be the same as your wife's: Don't have these sort of savings :-) (sell them before the start of the reporting year)

Step 3 is to withdraw the funds when she’s over 59.5 as a lump sum which will not be taxed in neither US, nor U.K. A bit confused here - if you withdraw this in chunks, it will be taxed in the U.K.?
No tax to either country, provided the money you are taking our has either been in the Roth IRA for at least 5 years or is the result of growth from money originally invested at least 5 years ago. How often and how much you take out at a time doesn't matter.
You are probably already aware of your wife's FATCA and FBAR reporting requirements, but if your currently under the reporting limits (unlikely) then piping a meaningful lump sum withdrawal through UK bank accounts will put you over.


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2021, 01:39:20 PM »
So here’s a question maybe someone can answer.  We have traditional and Roth IRAs in the USA and a couple 401ks.  Managing the iras is becoming increasingly difficult as Fidelity and Schwab won’t allow us to buy MF now we live here and even though we’ve Brexited we still can’t buy ETFs either apparently.  So, Roth conversions, we both have long established Roths with small balances, if we gradually convert our traditional iras to the Roths what would prevent us from immediately then withdrawing the monies from the Roth without penalty?  I feel I must’ve missed something here as this seems too good to be true.  Bear with me, 1) convert IRA monies to Roth results in US tax due but no UK tax, 2) immediately withdraw from Roth to pay the estimated taxes due on conversion but this withdrawal attracts no UK or US tax.  Roths are over 5 years old and we are both over 60.  Can someone either confirm this is the situation or tell me where I’m wrong?  Ta.


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2021, 04:00:46 PM »
So here’s a question maybe someone can answer.  We have traditional and Roth IRAs in the USA and a couple 401ks.  Managing the iras is becoming increasingly difficult as Fidelity and Schwab won’t allow us to buy MF now we live here and even though we’ve Brexited we still can’t buy ETFs either apparently.  So, Roth conversions, we both have long established Roths with small balances, if we gradually convert our traditional iras to the Roths what would prevent us from immediately then withdrawing the monies from the Roth without penalty?  I feel I must’ve missed something here as this seems too good to be true.  Bear with me, 1) convert IRA monies to Roth results in US tax due but no UK tax, 2) immediately withdraw from Roth to pay the estimated taxes due on conversion but this withdrawal attracts no UK or US tax.  Roths are over 5 years old and we are both over 60.  Can someone either confirm this is the situation or tell me where I’m wrong?  Ta.

I think your approach is good but we would do it slightly differently since we are able to. Year 1 do a lump sum Roth conversion for the husband and withdraw enough funds from the  wife’s Roth to pay the taxes. Following year do a lump sum Roth conversion from the wife’s IRA and make a withdrawal from the husband’s Roth to pay the taxes.  Rinse and repeat.
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2021, 04:28:20 PM »
So here’s a question maybe someone can answer.  We have traditional and Roth IRAs in the USA and a couple 401ks.  Managing the iras is becoming increasingly difficult as Fidelity and Schwab won’t allow us to buy MF now we live here and even though we’ve Brexited we still can’t buy ETFs either apparently.  So, Roth conversions, we both have long established Roths with small balances, if we gradually convert our traditional iras to the Roths what would prevent us from immediately then withdrawing the monies from the Roth without penalty?  I feel I must’ve missed something here as this seems too good to be true.  Bear with me, 1) convert IRA monies to Roth results in US tax due but no UK tax, 2) immediately withdraw from Roth to pay the estimated taxes due on conversion but this withdrawal attracts no UK or US tax.  Roths are over 5 years old and we are both over 60.  Can someone either confirm this is the situation or tell me where I’m wrong?  Ta.

There's a separate 5 year clock that starts on each conversion. So from the year you do the conversion, 5 tax years later (so technically could be a 4 years and a day for a 31Dec conversion, 01Jan withdrawal), then you can withdraw the Roth money without paying the penalties and income tax. You can start a ladder, doing some conversion every year, to manage the US tax due on the conversions (a big conversion can push you into a high tax bracket, compared to smaller conversions over the years).

Of course, doing a conversion every year, and especially for the same amount, starts to look like periodic payments, not lump sums, so then you get back to the question of whether HRMC can/will tax them...

EDIT: Missed that you're already over 59.5, that's my fault - no need for the separate 5 year clock if you're past 59.5.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 06:54:14 AM by tubaleiter »


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2021, 07:18:46 PM »
I am pretty sure that as long as you are over age 59.5 AND your first Roth IRA was opened more than 5 years ago then you can convert, pay taxes due, then withdraw from the Roth at any time after that with no penalty. This has been discussed many times on the early retirement site I am a member of and I like the summary below.

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/5-yr-rule-roth-conversions-107893.html

Quote
Roth IRA Distribution Table

UNDER AGE 59.5
FIVE YEAR CONVERSION HOLDING PERIOD NOT MET

Contributions: Tax-No; Penalty-No
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-Yes (Taxable Portion)
Conversions: Tax-No ;Penalty-No (Nontaxable Portion)
Earnings: Tax-Yes; Penalty-Yes

UNDER AGE 59.5
FIVE YEAR CONVERSION HOLDING PERIOD MET

Contributions: Tax-No; Penalty-No
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Taxable Portion)
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Nontaxable Portion)
Earnings: Tax-Yes; Penalty-Yes

OVER AGE 59.5
LESS THAN FIVE YEARS SINCE OPENING FIRST ROTH IRA

Contributions: Tax-No ;Penalty-No
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Taxable Portion)
Conversions: Tax-No; Penalty-No (Nontaxable Portion)
Earnings: Tax-Yes; Penalty-No

OVER AGE 59.5
FIVE YEARS OR MORE SINCE OPENING FIRST ROTH IRA

All Distributions Are Qualified"
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2021, 06:54:56 AM »
I am pretty sure that as long as you are over age 59.5 AND your first Roth IRA was opened more than 5 years ago then you can convert, pay taxes due, then withdraw from the Roth at any time after that with no penalty. This has been discussed many times on the early retirement site I am a member of and I like the summary below.

You're correct, I missed the fact they were already over 59.5. The 5 year clock after conversion is only for under 59.5s.


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2021, 07:43:01 AM »
I am pretty sure that as long as you are over age 59.5 AND your first Roth IRA was opened more than 5 years ago then you can convert, pay taxes due, then withdraw from the Roth at any time after that with no penalty. This has been discussed many times on the early retirement site I am a member of and I like the summary below.

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/5-yr-rule-roth-conversions-107893.html

Thanks for the replies Durhamlad and Tubaleiter.  So I relayed this info to my DH and he went and had a chat with Schwab about specifics.  Whoever he spoke to there told him if he opened a new Roth at Schwab and converted from his Schwab trad IRA there was a five year holding period to avoid penalty, even though he had told her he had a Roth at another institution that is greater than 5 years old.  I think that’s wrong based on what I understood and what you guys have said.  In further reading I see that the ‘5 year rule’  is actually 3 different rules depending on whether it’s contribution, conversion or investment gain dollars. What a pain! If anyone has any definitive resources I can point DH to I’d be grateful, I would describe his current feeling towards what I’m telling him as ‘dubious’. 😂  Ta.


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2021, 12:36:02 AM »
So here we are 3 months on and preparing to do our first conversion having settled on a strategy to convert a fair amount of my husbands traditional ira to a Roth over the next 3 years. We opened a Roth with Schwab, where the traditional ira is, to make the conversion easy and were all set to do the conversion when Schwab told us they would withhold a minimum 10% for taxes.  This is a problem as surely then we have a distribution which would surely be both uk and US taxable? We planned to pay the taxes from other funds.  Anyone know if we can ‘top up’ the Roth to the full conversion amount and would this then avoid a uk taxable event?


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2021, 08:58:10 AM »
So here we are 3 months on and preparing to do our first conversion having settled on a strategy to convert a fair amount of my husbands traditional ira to a Roth over the next 3 years. We opened a Roth with Schwab, where the traditional ira is, to make the conversion easy and were all set to do the conversion when Schwab told us they would withhold a minimum 10% for taxes.  This is a problem as surely then we have a distribution which would surely be both uk and US taxable? We planned to pay the taxes from other funds.  Anyone know if we can ‘top up’ the Roth to the full conversion amount and would this then avoid a uk taxable event?

That is a bummer, and it is not a legal requirement as far as I know.  Ask Schwab if there is an IRS form he can file to waive that tax withholding requirement. I am assuming they are doing this because they don’t have a US correspondence address.
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: 401k => Roth IRA
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2021, 11:37:10 AM »
We had the same problem with Schwab.  In the end we had to open up a Fidelity IRA (US based), transfer money into it from Schwab, and then do the conversion.  We had decided to give Thun a try to manage our investments since we were so limited on what we could do by Schwab.  Thun act as a custodian for us (for a fee of course) and can access all the typical ETFs whereas expats can't.  They handled the setting up of the Fidelity IRAs.  BTW They were a bit non-committal on whether the IRA/Roth conversion was a US taxable event or a UK taxable event.   


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