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Pension questions -)
« on: February 23, 2022, 07:18:36 PM »
I've been trying to find answers to these questions with no luck. I'd really appreciate thoughts... With the market the way it is, my early retirement plans may need a major re-think! Thank you...

1,
As far as a U.K personal pension is concerned. If I purchase a life annuity from that pension and for example did this before age 59.5, (actually taking income before 59.5), then would I somehow have a 10% penalty imposed by the IRS?

2,
I will begin taking 401(k) distributions this year. As I qualify for no 10% penalty under the ‘Rule of 55’ as I had taken early retirement, If I do return to a new job before 59.5, would I then have that 10% penalty imposed until I reach that age, or can I receive the full annual distribution without penalty and also receive employment income too?

3,
I read reports that you (as an individual) can’t contribute more than 50% to the employer plan, then I see other reports that the employer can’t either. Are there restrictions of who pays what percentage to the retirement plan? Also, are there any limits to what maybe contributed in total to the U.K employer retirement plan from an IRS perspective?

4,
How are contributions to a personal pension shown on your IRS tax return, or are they? I've never heard that these contributions are shown and reading from some of the expat tax sites, this is their view too. Is there a limit that you can contribute to a U.K personal pension from an IRA perspective?

5,
Contributions to an employer pension. I understand that you can deduct or exempt your contributions. Can you also deduct or exclude your employers contributions? Or can you do neither and not show any of the contributions, (yours or employers) if it makes no odds and you file a 2555 as all earned income falls below the FEIE limit and you really don't want to file an 1116.


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Re: Pension questions -)
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2022, 09:19:23 PM »
I've been trying to find answers to these questions with no luck. I'd really appreciate thoughts... With the market the way it is, my early retirement plans may need a major re-think! Thank you...

1,
As far as a U.K personal pension is concerned. If I purchase a life annuity from that pension and for example did this before age 59.5, (actually taking income before 59.5), then would I somehow have a 10% penalty imposed by the IRS?

2,
I will begin taking 401(k) distributions this year. As I qualify for no 10% penalty under the ‘Rule of 55’ as I had taken early retirement, If I do return to a new job before 59.5, would I then have that 10% penalty imposed until I reach that age, or can I receive the full annual distribution without penalty and also receive employment income too?

3,
I read reports that you (as an individual) can’t contribute more than 50% to the employer plan, then I see other reports that the employer can’t either. Are there restrictions of who pays what percentage to the retirement plan? Also, are there any limits to what maybe contributed in total to the U.K employer retirement plan from an IRS perspective?

4,
How are contributions to a personal pension shown on your IRS tax return, or are they? I've never heard that these contributions are shown and reading from some of the expat tax sites, this is their view too. Is there a limit that you can contribute to a U.K personal pension from an IRA perspective?

5,
Contributions to an employer pension. I understand that you can deduct or exempt your contributions. Can you also deduct or exclude your employers contributions? Or can you do neither and not show any of the contributions, (yours or employers) if it makes no odds and you file a 2555 as all earned income falls below the FEIE limit and you really don't want to file an 1116.

Not sure on these so I am interested in seeing the responses.

1. I would think not as the IRS 10% penalty is for early withdrawal of IRS tax deferred tax accounts.

2. I would think it does not matter if your circumstances change and you begin earning. If circumstances change you cannot stop withdrawals for either 5 years or until you reach age 59.5

3.  Don’t know

4. Don’t know for sure but what my son does is report gross salary plus employer contributions to the pension plan, then excludes the whole amount with FEIE. I think that if you contribute more than the employer match then it becomes a foreign grantor trust and has to be reported on a 3520.  My son only matches the employer contributions to avoid this possible extra reporting.

5.  Don’t know
« Last Edit: February 23, 2022, 09:22:01 PM by durhamlad »
Dual USC/UKC living in the UK since May 2016


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Re: Pension questions -)
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2022, 05:05:19 PM »
I can't answer the first couple of questions but here's some considerations for the other questions on 3 & 4

3,
I read reports that you (as an individual) can’t contribute more than 50% to the employer plan, then I see other reports that the employer can’t either. Are there restrictions of who pays what percentage to the retirement plan? Also, are there any limits to what maybe contributed in total to the U.K employer retirement plan from an IRS perspective?


From a UK perspective, this is almost unworkable for many from an IRS perspective. Auto enrollment plans that are now run by many companies have government mandated contribution levels, the most typical being 3% employer and 5% employee - therefore instantly the employee is over the 50%. It's often only sold called 'gold plated schemes were the employee pays less than the employer.

4,
How are contributions to a personal pension shown on your IRS tax return, or are they? I've never heard that these contributions are shown and reading from some of the expat tax sites, this is their view too. Is there a limit that you can contribute to a U.K personal pension from an IRA perspective?


I've never felt 100% comfortable about excluding pension contributions (employer or employee) from my  US income - I've erred heavily on the side of caution and included all pension contributions as income - the overall result being that my carryforward unutilised FTC on 1116 is way understated but I can't see me ever being in a position to utilise them within 10 years anyway. Belt and braces has always been to take a Treaty position just in case - what I'm trying to avoid is any 3520 reporting, which would be an absolute nightmare!.






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Re: Pension questions -)
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2022, 06:46:19 PM »
I can't answer the first couple of questions but here's some considerations for the other questions on 3 & 4

3,
I read reports that you (as an individual) can’t contribute more than 50% to the employer plan, then I see other reports that the employer can’t either. Are there restrictions of who pays what percentage to the retirement plan? Also, are there any limits to what maybe contributed in total to the U.K employer retirement plan from an IRS perspective?


From a UK perspective, this is almost unworkable for many from an IRS perspective. Auto enrollment plans that are now run by many companies have government mandated contribution levels, the most typical being 3% employer and 5% employee - therefore instantly the employee is over the 50%. It's often only sold called 'gold plated schemes were the employee pays less than the employer.

4,
How are contributions to a personal pension shown on your IRS tax return, or are they? I've never heard that these contributions are shown and reading from some of the expat tax sites, this is their view too. Is there a limit that you can contribute to a U.K personal pension from an IRA perspective?


I've never felt 100% comfortable about excluding pension contributions (employer or employee) from my  US income - I've erred heavily on the side of caution and included all pension contributions as income - the overall result being that my carryforward unutilised FTC on 1116 is way understated but I can't see me ever being in a position to utilise them within 10 years anyway. Belt and braces has always been to take a Treaty position just in case - what I'm trying to avoid is any 3520 reporting, which would be an absolute nightmare!.


You're absolutely right with regards those contributions via an employer plan. I think the min from all sources must be 8%, what a midfield it all is. Ultimately U.K pensions either employer or personal, SIPP even; are IRS-qualified so no trust reporting. Many practitioners, especially in the U.K want 3520 and 3520-A filed each year. These fees can very easily cost more then the contributions paid into the scheme annually!


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