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Topic: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK  (Read 6002 times)

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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2009, 07:08:26 PM »
From another perspective, generally speaking, Canadian citizens living abroad are not allowed to vote after 5 years + of being abroad - I assume the argument is that the knowledge / understanding may be lacking by being absent from Canada; however, in this ever shrinking world, that is harder to argue. I think the voting right is also tied to assessment of ties to Canada for taxation purposes.
Funny: when I get my Canadian citizenship, I won't be eligible to vote in Canada as I've never lived there, but I will be able to vote in the UK as a Commonwealth citizen residing here! The lovely world of multiple citizenships... ;) ;D


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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2009, 07:16:52 PM »
Funny: when I get my Canadian citizenship, I won't be eligible to vote in Canada as I've never lived there, but I will be able to vote in the UK as a Commonwealth citizen residing here! The lovely world of multiple citizenships... ;) ;D

 [smiley=laugh4.gif] I love it!
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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2009, 02:54:05 PM »
For my money anyone who is offically a British Citizen should be allowed to vote and nobody else even if they pay tax but don't have a British passport.

Only fully blown citizens should have the right as others won't of lived in the country for long enough and hence won't have the knowlege or understanding to vote on our matters.

I'm a US citizen and have lived in the UK for 23 years. That's considerably longer than some UK voters have even been alive.

I also pay tax in the 40% tax bracket yet have no say as to how it's spent.


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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2009, 03:02:46 PM »
If one wants to vote in the UK, then they must take up citizenship. It's the rule. Otherwise they are a guest, tax-paying or not. Once they become a citizen, they can vote if they want non-citizens to have a vote or to have a say in the way their money is spent.

There should not be any issue with absentism voting. You get the vote by virtue of being a citizen. What about armed forces personnel? They could be deployed for a long time and out of touch. Being informed is not a requirement to voting just as not being a land owner is no longer a requirement, just being lawful citizen is the rule. I say lawful because I think prisoners aren't allowed the vote (correct me if I am mistaken).

Incidentally, any US citizen who joins a foreign armed force or is elected to a foreign government could (not necessarily will) have their US citizenship revoked (this was the case when I enquired of the rules decades ago).



Well, it used to be "the rule", that you had to be white and male to vote.

Oh, how times have changed.



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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2009, 03:48:30 PM »
Incidentally, any US citizen who joins a foreign armed force or is elected to a foreign government could (not necessarily will) have their US citizenship revoked (this was the case when I enquired of the rules decades ago).


Hmmmm... interesting. I met a Member of European Parliament whose wife is American, but has lived here 26 years and her community wanted her to run for MP, but she declined. I wonder if she had become an MP if she would then lose her US citizenship?


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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2009, 04:32:56 PM »
I'm a US citizen and have lived in the UK for 23 years. That's considerably longer than some UK voters have even been alive.

I also pay tax in the 40% tax bracket yet have no say as to how it's spent.


You could take British citizenship AND retain your US citizenship. Then you could have your say. In both countries.

But unless someone is a citizen or willing to become one, they should not have a right to vote. The responsibilty/requirement of paying tax is a consequence of being afforded the privlege to work here.


Hmmmm... interesting. I met a Member of European Parliament whose wife is American, but has lived here 26 years and her community wanted her to run for MP, but she declined. I wonder if she had become an MP if she would then lose her US citizenship?

I would think nowadays, as long as she wasn't going against the grain of the US, they'd probably not bother. But they could if they wanted.
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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2009, 08:26:44 PM »
Incidentally, any US citizen who joins a foreign armed force or is elected to a foreign government could (not necessarily will) have their US citizenship revoked (this was the case when I enquired of the rules decades ago).
So if this is correct and if a USC served, for example, in the Israeli armed forces they would loose their US citizenship?


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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2009, 08:39:35 PM »
So if this is correct and if a USC served, for example, in the Israeli armed forces they would loose their US citizenship?

Per the US Department of State:

Quote
POTENTIALLY EXPATRIATING ACTS

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only under strict, narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

But if you'll take note...these are POTENTIAL expatriating acts...and you'll notice "obtaining naturalization in a foreign state" to be on the list also.


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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2009, 10:50:02 PM »
Yes but if you read on, the presumption is you wish to retain your US citizenship unless you state otherwise. They don't strip people of their citizenship:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:DXjU4ayGy90J:travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html+obtaining+naturalization+in+a+foreign+state+%28Sec.+349+%28a%29+%281%29&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS APPLICABLE

In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who:

   1. is naturalized in a foreign country;
   2. takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state;
   3. serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or
   4. accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government,

and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed.

When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship.


So the answer to MasterJay's question is no, not unless they wish to relinquish their US  citizenship.


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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2009, 03:17:53 AM »

MasterJays question: So if this is correct and if a USC served, for example, in the Israeli armed forces they would loose their US citizenship?
The answer is no.

In a nutshell, they will not take citizenship away nor even care if one becomes British, serves in the forces, works for the gov’t or takes a routine oath unless you go and say I quit. Could one even do it? The paper pushers would probably not have a clue what to do. I mean how many times would they have even seen a request to give it all up?

But just so everybody is aware, if one reads on further, the presumption is you wish to retain your US citizenship unless you state otherwise only applies to the following: (I have underlined the key words)

   1. is naturalized in a foreign country;
   2. takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state;
   3. serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or
   4. accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government,

So basically just about every member of UKY that has concerns of losing their US citizenship should rest easy. It ain’t gonna happen. I could be wrong but I am not aware anyone in here seeking political office or gainfully employed at gov’t policy level.

But to answer a general question: Can one lose their US citizenship? The answer is yes. It probably doesn’t happen often but I am sure there are times that a US citizen gets to “help the Dept of State with their enquiries” for the following reasons:

           non-routine oaths could attract attention
           high policy level employment
           seeking election

but even then it would be rare for them to strip a person of their citizenship.

In a nut shell, it is hard to lose one's US citizenship; possible but unlikely. Following quotes are taken Department of State's site
(highlights are DoS derived, not mine)

POLICY LEVEL POSITIONS
Quote
Conversely, a person who publicly denied an intent to retain citizenship, and/or who exercised the authorities of a very high-level foreign office in a manner flagrantly violative of United States law or otherwise inconsistent with allegiance to the United States, stopped paying his/her taxes, traveled to the United States on a foreign passport, and abandoned any residence in the United States might be found to have intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship notwithstanding certain statements to the contrary. Therefore, the Department will consider statements, as well as inferences drawn from the person's conduct, in determining one's intent to remain a U.S. citizen. Intent is determined on a case-by-case basis in light of the facts and circumstances of each individual's case. If expressed intent and conduct are consistent with a lack of intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship, the Department would generally conclude that no loss has occurred

ELECTED OFFICIALS:
Quote
This administrative premise is not applicable when an individual seeks public elected office in a foreign state or other policy-level position.  In such cases, the Department of State will carefully ascertain the individual's intent toward U.S. citizenship

Because the Department's administrative practice presumes that U.S. citizens employed in non-policy level positions in a foreign government do not have the requisite intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship, there are no efforts to seek out or adjudicate the citizenship of citizens who fall into this category of employment. On the other hand, because there is no administrative presumption that U.S. citizens who hold policy-level positions in foreign governments necessarily intend to retain their U.S. citizenship, efforts are made to fully adjudicate such cases to determine the individual's intent. (Service in a country's legislative body is considered by the Department to be a policy level position.)

In some cases, it would appear that holding a foreign office may be incompatible with maintaining U.S. citizenship (e.g. if the position necessarily entails absolute immunity from U.S. law and the powers of the office are exercised in a manner contrary to United States law), although even this situation would be examined on a case by case basis. The Department does not normally consider foreign government service alone as sufficient to sustain the burden of showing loss of U.S. citizenship by a preponderance of the evidence when the individual has explicitly expressed a contrary intent. This is particularly true when the individual continues to file U.S. tax returns, enters and leaves the U.S. on a U.S. passport (as required by law), maintains close ties in the U.S. (such as maintaining a residence in the U.S.), and takes other actions consistent with an intent to retain U.S. citizenship. Conversely, a person who publicly denied an intent to retain citizenship, and/or who exercised the authorities of a very high-level foreign office in a manner flagrantly violative of United States law or otherwise inconsistent with allegiance to the United States, stopped paying his/her taxes, traveled to the United States on a foreign passport, and abandoned any residence in the United States might be found to have intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship notwithstanding certain statements to the contrary. Therefore, the Department will consider statements, as well as inferences drawn from the person's conduct, in determining one's intent to remain a U.S. citizen. Intent is determined on a case-by-case basis in light of the facts and circumstances of each individual's case. If expressed intent and conduct are consistent with a lack of intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship, the Department would generally conclude that no loss has occurred

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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2009, 12:25:51 PM »
You could take British citizenship AND retain your US citizenship. Then you could have your say. In both countries.

But unless someone is a citizen or willing to become one, they should not have a right to vote.


We're not talking about how it is, we're talking about how it should be.

Why should I have to become a citizen to vote? Personally, I think it's wrong that I can (and do) vote in US elections. I only vote in federal elections, though. I do think that US policies can directly affect me, so I vote for the President, but I don't vote in State or city elections because I don't live there.

I do, however, live HERE and I should be able to vote, regardless of my citizenship. The UK government granted me ILR and I pay the salaries of the lawmakers so why can I not say how the money is spent?



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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2009, 01:26:07 PM »
Hmm.  I think the reason I feel that only citizens should be allowed to vote is that in my opinion, if you allow non-citizens to vote, you dilute the meaning of citizenship (and as I said upthread, I definitely don't agree with the UK's practice of giving Commonwealth citizens the right to vote- that may have been appropriate 50 or 60 years ago, but not anymore.) The difference between citizens and permanent residents in the UK is already quite small (the biggest differences are voting for non-Commonwealth citizens, being able to work in the civil service and freedom of movement), so if you give the right to vote to all foreign permanent resident nationals, there's not that much left.

For me, I guess it comes down to a personal feeling that the notion of "citizenship" is a useful social construct that we have created for a variety of reasons, and being able to vote only in the national affairs of the country/ies of which you are a citizen should always be one of its defining characteristics (no matter where that citizen actually resides), otherwise the entire notion of citizenship becomes less relevant and loses some of its usefulness.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 01:34:05 PM by springhaze »
Now a triple citizen!

Student visa 9/06-->Int'l Grad Scheme 1/08-->FLR(M) 7/08-->ILR 6/10-->British citizenship 12/12


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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2009, 02:01:44 PM »
My view is that a non-citizen should not be afforded the right of vote in that they have made no long term commit to that country. Yes one may have committed to spouse or family or whatever reason. One may have committed to their job but one has not committed to the nation. One could effectively vote on something that changes peoples lives and then up sticks and leave without any ties to having to live with the consequences of their vote. Yes a citizen could do the same thing, but that is another issue that falls into the category of inalienable rights.

But because one is afforded the right to work and they use this right, they are also afforded the responsibilty to pay for that right but their taxes shouldn't be the criteria to allow them to have, what would effectively be, a purchased vote.

Conversely, if one is afforded the right to work and doesn't use that right, they will not be paying any part towards the salaries of the lawmakers, should they be allowed the vote?

Taxes are for a lot more than a politician's salary. Things like health care, police, sewage, water, miltary etc etc. I just don't think someone without 100% commitment to the country should be allowed the vote. That's just my opinion.

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Re: Should Americans be allowed to vote in the UK
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2009, 04:23:24 PM »
Hmm.  I think the reason I feel that only citizens should be allowed to vote is that in my opinion, if you allow non-citizens to vote, you dilute the meaning of citizenship (and as I said upthread, I definitely don't agree with the UK's practice of giving Commonwealth citizens the right to vote- that may have been appropriate 50 or 60 years ago, but not anymore.) The difference between citizens and permanent residents in the UK is already quite small (the biggest differences are voting for non-Commonwealth citizens, being able to work in the civil service and freedom of movement), so if you give the right to vote to all foreign permanent resident nationals, there's not that much left.

For me, I guess it comes down to a personal feeling that the notion of "citizenship" is a useful social construct that we have created for a variety of reasons, and being able to vote only in the national affairs of the country/ies of which you are a citizen should always be one of its defining characteristics (no matter where that citizen actually resides), otherwise the entire notion of citizenship becomes less relevant and loses some of its usefulness.

I suppose that makes sense, considering that the only thing citizenship would afford me (on a routine basis) is the right to vote LOL That and picking the shortest queue at the airport  :P


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