UKM Application

I don't think that would be the case but it might be a way for me to get a certificate of Citizenship

I seem to recall seeing something about that, too.  Let us know what happens!  I'm very curious!

Will do...sense that this is the beginning of a long road ahead..no problem there...just anxious to pull this off.

Question - If I do go the immigration lawyer route, do they just provide certification of doucments or do they have some sway in terms of getting an application sucessfully put through..I want to ensure that my expectations are not unrealistic....

Thanks,
E

They don't have any influence over the outcome but they should know the system well and therefore put your case forward in the best possible light.  But really the HO should look at all angles anyway (yeah right!).

That is good news!

I found this:

"8. A person born outside the United Kingdom (see Note A) before 1 January 1983 who became a British citizen on that date (see Note E) is a British citizen otherwise than by descent if:

This is very helpful information. I had not seen this. Thanks so much for the help.

If the Embassy, has already deemed that my mother acquired her citizenship by descent, would any of this even be sufficient to help?

If the Embassy, has already deemed that my mother acquired her citizenship by descent, would any of this even be sufficient to help?

Did they explain how/why they came to that conclusion?

No...I guess that would be a point to clarify with them. I am getting frustrated and I did hear back from a lawyer and he wants a retainer of between $2k and 3K which is too costly for me especially right now.

I did also find a tidbit about military service and perhaps this would be material. My grandfather was in the Army I think and discharged before my mother was born. I believe it was a normal discharge..not for any bad reason...

I did hear back from the Consulate in LA who advised the specifics of my grandfather's Consular service in the 1950's which they kindly provided. He held a very senior post and was awarded an OBE.

I have faxed them again requesting more detailed information about his service in S. American as this could be pertinent. All they could confirm for S. America were dates of employment --1933 to 1946.

The problem is that each time I find out a bit more information...I end up needing to ask more questions...ie...is Crown Service sufficient or would have my grandfather have to have been recruited from Britain before my mom's birth for the requirement to have been met?

Also, if my mother had been deemed a citizen previous to 1983, would the information you kindly provided to me, even help?

I am struggling w/out the expertise to know which direction to in next.

Thanks again so much for your input.

Wow, this is turning into an interesting discussion! 

So what exactly is the definition of "Crown Service"?  (Just curious, as I've no clue.)  Is it working for the British government?

Maybe you can find an immigration attorney that will give you a free consult?  Sounds like yours is not an entirely straightforward case.

Good luck!

Civil servants are servants of the Crown. In effect, this means the Government of the United Kingdom, the Scottish Executive and the National Assembly for Wales.

I am sorry you are having such troubles!  My only advice is to seek additional help from a solicitor.  I was able to speak with one in London and ask a number of questions about immigrating my UKC husband to the US without being charged.

I called the Law Society (www.lawsociety.org.uk) and they gave some advice (probably because I was living in the UK) but they also gave me some solicitors' names.  You can do a search on their website for the same. 

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor.law

There are some solicitors listed for the US specializing in immigration law. 

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor/action=lawfirmsearch.law

I would keep calling until someone gives you what you are looking for.  All the legal advice I've gotten thus far has been free and I managed not to get my husband deported....(i understand your case is much  more complicated).

I wish you luck.

trisha

Hmm, seems like you're getting conflicting information (or maybe I am misunderstanding).

If your grandfather really was discharged before your mother's birth, then that would indeed make her a citizen by decent and would mean you could not apply with UKM.

On the other hand, you were told that he was in S America with the Army from 33-46, and your mother was born within that time, right?  Or was the 33-46 stint with something other than the Army?

Like closet.hippy, I don't actually know what Crown Service includes, and the notes on the page I provided are not very clear.  I think that bottom line is that you should clarify who he worked for at the time of your mother's birth, and then contact that organization directly to find out if they were considered Crown Service in that year.

As for the becoming a citizen on 1 January 1983, I believe that the reason for that wording has something to do with a change in law that took effect on that date.  The vast majority of people who were citizens before that date "became" citizens under the new law on that date.  So if your mom was registered or born as a citizen in the 30s, she technically "became" a citizen according to current law on 1 Jan 1983.

Just a disclaimer... I'm just a fellow user of this site who happens to enjoy researching things on the internet, so definitely take all I say with a grain of salt.  I hope it's useful nonetheless.

Thanks again to everyone has posted with questions, answers and all this helpful advice . I will consult a solicitor I think. I am still waiting to hear from JCWI.org. I sent them a fax w/some questions.

No my grandfather began as a clerk, I believe, at the British Consulate in Bogotá, Colombia in 1936.  His military service preceeded this and took place in the UK and ended around 1924.  Believe that his army stint and civil service career are unrelated.

So what exactly is the definition of "Crown Service"?  (Just curious, as I've no clue.)  Is it working for the British government?

In the straight-forward case, it means that you get paid with funds appropriated by Parliament.  Along with a few sinecures who do not get paid at all.

*BUT*  the timeframe under consideration is pre-1981    which means that it needs to be placed within the context of the British Nationality Act 1981 and the definitions of Crown Service that this act provides.  And from there, things get very (as the Brits say) wooly.  At least it's vague in my references.

And wooly-ness tends to muddy the waters, which elevates cie3's case from a clear-cut "no" to a something more complex.       And that works in her favour.  If she cannot muddy the waters, her case is hopeless, right?

To the other parts of the thread about finding a lawyer, it's nice to know that the Law Society and the OISC are out there, but when push comes to shove, I would also consider advisors out of Pakistan, Tanzania, and Northern Africa.  Is it crazy?  No, it's not.  The "Chancery Lane and Stone Buildings" crowd put on an impressive show, but their expertise is in the corporate and family area of immigration rather than nationality.   

When was the last time you saw a "Chancery Lane" firm win a nationality case based upon BNA/81?  Like never right?  Duh!  Just my own thoughts... 

And to Formica, I like your disclaimer about researching on the Internet.     I like to do that too sometimes, but most of the time just stick to manuals and journals because they are more up-to-date.  It pays sometimes,  the JCWI manual is about £40 and has all the newest details.  Or the ILPA publications etc etc...

And *completely* off-topic, for the web, I use a program called "Copernic Agent".  Now why would somebody pay $79 for a web search engine when they can search Google for free?     Weird, no?  But it makes sense to some...

Anyway, it's an interesting thread!