Being a citizen or not?

I sent mine in through the post, with original documents.
It took 3 months.

What's the deal with taking stuff to the Council to have it certified?  Is there a special department for that, or do I just ring the Council and assume they'll know what I'm talking about?  If it can be done in Newcastle, count me in!

I know that I will want to become a citizen when I am eligible to do so.  My husband and I are paying council tax, income tax, etc & I want to be able to vote (as a tax-paying citizen).  (My 2p)  Unfortunately, since I just moved here last year -- I'm fairly certain that I will be subject to the new harder rules or whatever ...which I think is complete b*ll*cks in consideration that I am fulfilling all the responsibilities of a regular citizen regarding paying tax & so on.

4)  you have to attend a citizenship ceremony which requires you to take out part or all of a day to get there and attend.

I don't see what is the downside to the citizenship ceremony, sfgirl, apart from my reason #4 above?  You say a bunch of pretty much meaningless words, blah, blah, whatever, kneel before Queen, whatever, like I actually mean what I'm saying, "give me naturalization certificate", The End.  What's the fuss?

No need to renew any visas/ILRs.  Can leave Britain for as long a period as you like and instantly return back to the country unhindered.  Can go live and work anywhere in the EU countries.  Can claim any benefits you want (not sure if there's a difference for ILR people?).  Can vote.  Can get any job requiring British citizenship.  Can show off shiny, red passport 

To me the Pros far outweigh the Cons.

Do some people not want to get British citizenship because it perhaps erodes your Americanness?  Perhaps other reasons?  It'd be interesting to hear why.

Matt

Matt, I agree with you that the Pros far outweigh the Cons and I'm strongly encouraging an American friend in England to get the finger out and get her citizenship sorted. I don't think my reluctance was an American thing but I've clearly been affected by living in Northern Ireland - my affinity is more with the Island of Ireland not Britain. Also, voting here is a nonsense, we can't vote for anyone in government so whether or not I'm enfranchised it's a case of taxation but no representation.

And maybe my Americanness comes in a bit when it comes to swearing allegiance to the Queen...

I'm fairly certain that I will be subject to the new harder rules or whatever ...which I think is complete b*ll*cks in consideration that I am fulfilling all the responsibilities of a regular citizen regarding paying tax & so on.

I paid my taxes in the US, but I still had to go through the bureaucracy of becoming a US citizen by taking the naturalization test, etc.  The UK are now planning on giving a test, but I don't think it is a big deal.

bvamin

I'm not sure what sort of stuff they ask you in order to become a naturalised UK citizen. But I can speak for the other side -- becoming a naturalised US citizen. I did that when I was 21 and was asked some horrific stuff. I don't know if things have changed since then (1984), but back then it was pretty bad. I actually had to answer in writing that I was not a Communist. I'm not one, but I was offended and felt it was an unnecessary question. Doesn't the US have a legal Communist party?? Aren't we beyond McCarthyism?? Then all the crap I was supposed to say about bearing arms for my country, blah, blah, blah at the swearing-in ceremony. I just kept quiet for that part and hoped nobody would notice my lips weren't moving. And don't even get me started on the "under god" part of the Pledge of Allegiance!

To be fair, it's not bad at all here. I dreaded the ceremony but it was very nice. Yes we had to either swear or affirm the oath (and my lips didn't move either!) but the ones holding the ceremony circulated with everyone before and after. Overall it was formal but very laid back and the hot finger buffet was very good. Of course, this is N. Ireland; I get the feeling that Britain is more rushed.

What's the deal with taking stuff to the Council to have it certified?  Is there a special department for that, or do I just ring the Council and assume they'll know what I'm talking about?  If it can be done in Newcastle, count me in!

It's the Nationality Help Desk.  A good thing too.  It's in the blog here...

http://www.uk-yankee.com/articles/?page=4

and the hot finger buffet was very good.

You got a BUFFET?!?!?! In the US, it was just a huge courtroom full of about 200 people and then we were all quickly ushered out as soon as it was done. 

What's the deal with taking stuff to the Council to have it certified?  Is there a special department for that, or do I just ring the Council and assume they'll know what I'm talking about?  If it can be done in Newcastle, count me in!

This should have the phone numbers listed for the offices.  Remember, these are not part of the Home Office, they are local councils who work in conjunction with the Home Office.  So they can certify the documents but they must ultimately send these copies to the Home Office in Liverpool for actual approval so the response time can vary.

Having said that, because the council is certifying these things I think the Home Office knows they'll have an easy job of it as there's so little to check.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/applying/british_nationality/nationality_checking.html?

Matt

IMHO if one has difficulty in knowing general things about the country (OK, so some of them are a bit specific) or wanting to become part of the country by participating in a ceremony to do so, is there much point in wanting the nationality let alone living there?!?

I paid my taxes in the US, but I still had to go through the bureaucracy of becoming a US citizen by taking the naturalization test, etc.  The UK are now planning on giving a test, but I don't think it is a big deal.

Good point, fair enough.  Just out of curiosity, did those of you who became naturalized US citizens have to pay loads of money to get to that point (in other words, a US equivalent to the initial 'coming over' visa(s) whatever it/they may have been, the LLR, ILR, etc) -- like those of us coming here have to pay and pay and pay and...   (I'm a Yorkshire lass, me.)

  IMHO if one has difficulty in knowing general things about the country (OK, so some of them are a bit specific) or wanting to become part of the country by participating in a ceremony to do so, is there much point in wanting the nationality let alone living there?!? 

Hmmmm -- I don't remember anyone (or did they?) expressing difficulty over knowing things about the country?  Just issues with being tested, and ceremonies are...well, ceremonies.  England is certainly not my first choice of countries out of everywhere in the world there is to live (neither is the US for that matter)...but it was my lot to fall for an Englishman & here I am.  Had circumstances been different we could just as easily be living in the US now instead.  If my husband and I are lucky, maybe we'll both be living elsewhere in Europe or the Commonwealth someday.

Nevertheless, being a homeowner here & paying taxes -- yes, I want to be able to vote and all the benefits/responsibilities of citizenship too.  As for the taxation/representation thing -- I don't see the English political system as any worse than the American system largely run by & for the benefit of corporate greed (not by the people, for the people blah blah blah) -- but that topic (English vs American voting, politics, etc) could make for an interesting separate thread!  (Probably in Pettifog. )

IMHO if one has difficulty in knowing general things about the country (OK, so some of them are a bit specific) or wanting to become part of the country by participating in a ceremony to do so, is there much point in wanting the nationality let alone living there?!?

I would have thought the process to go through to obtain citizenship is sufficiently long enough that you'd know a fair amount of the questions on the test whether you wanted to or not.  Obviously, there may be 1 or 2 questions that even someone who knows the country pretty well may have to look up but I wouldn't have thought the test to be too difficult.

But being here for a long time and actually identifying with things and going out of your way to obtain extra knowledge on top of the area where you live or the local things to you are 2 different things.  Perhaps someone from a country with a very different culture and language may not leave their community much, may go to shops and restaurants that are of their own ethnic origin, etc. and, therefore may not do very well on the test unless they studied.

Someone like that or someone who merely sees citizenship as a ticket to come and go as they please, live in the EU, etc. may not be that fussed about knowing a whole lot about the UK.  I'm not saying that's particularly good or bad.  Perhaps certain people or gov't officials might be upset by that but as long as the person has been in the UK for that long, has paid taxes, has not committed crimes, why shouldn't they be allowed to have citizenship?

Some might even say that being too nationalistic or jingoistic could be a bad thing.  Others would disagree.
A cynical person might wonder if the tests are just a way to cut down on immigration (if it applies to ILR as well) and citizenship.

Matt

Well said.

Some might even say that being too nationalistic or jingoistic could be a bad thing. 

You took the thoughts right out of my head!

A cynical person might wonder if the tests are just a way to cut down on immigration (if it applies to ILR as well) and citizenship.

It does provide cause for wonder, yet it seems a silly strategy of trying to cut down on immigration.  If you want to immigrate, want the citizenship or ILR, badly enough -- you're not going to let a silly (and probably mostly easy) test stand in your way.  To me, it just seems an unnecessary inconvenience more than anything...when you're at the point that you've already waded through reams of immigration paperwork (visas, LLR, ILR) and expense -- you're paying taxes, working, owning a home, abiding by the laws, some of us married to Brits, etc -- like you don't already have a stake in the UK and in being a UK citizen?  I don't think you can go through all that & not know important stuff about the country, the culture, etc -- as you said, Matt.

I just find the whole idea of a test a bit insulting. I've been here 11 years, fully employed and paying taxes the whole time. Why do I have to memorize the British monarchy (or whatever else is in the 150 page book) in order to become a voter as well as a rate payer?