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Topic: What are Brits missing?  (Read 20271 times)

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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2005, 02:36:33 PM »
- lack of bins

Definitely a worse problem in Central London than elsewhere, as a lot were removed after the IRA decided that placing bombs in litter bins was a quick, effective way to kill a lot of innocent people.  The IRA are less of a problem now, with the Northern Ireland peace process, but the councils have been tardy about replacing the bins.


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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2005, 02:46:11 PM »
Wow!  I reckon this should be awarded a blue ribbon for "fastest growing thread" -- Only started at lunchtime yesterday and already on its fifth page!   :D  (Oops, make that the sixth page while I was typing!)

MI,
I'm British, born and raised, but have also lived in the States for a while, so I'm looking at things from a somewhat different perspective.  

As several people have mentioned, American house prices would certainly be a big draw from our point of view.   The price of real-estate in Britain has just gotten absolutely ridiculous in recent years.  Back in 1986 my family bought a home on the edge of a small seaside town in Lincolnshire.  It was certainly a "fixer-upper," needing work on the roof, rewiring, new kitchen, etc., but it was over 1000 sq. ft. and came with a 1/4-acre lot.  Incredible as it may seem today, we paid just £18,500.      

The little seaside settlement in Norfolk where I live now has some of the lowest prices you'll find, yet even "fixer-uppers" which are barely 600 sq. ft. and on small lots are now on the market for £80,000 plus.  In a nearby village there are 1970s bungalows, 3 bedrooms,  pleasant enough setting, but nothing special.  I've seen them advertised in the £150,000 to £200,000 price range, and that's still considered a cheap area.  If you go anywhere into the towns, you can end up paying almost £100,000 for a small terraced house (that's a row-house, typically with a front door which opens almost directly onto the street and a tiny backyard if you're lucky).    

Compared to all of this, the typical American home with greater privacy, more space, and all for a much lower price is very attractive.   I don't know about in the U.S. now, but 10 years ago where I was in a small midwestern town (Neb.) the average 3-BR home on a nice lot was about $60,000.    At that time, the equivalent in Sterling here would buy you a small studio apartment if you were lucky.  (These days it wouldn't even get you an empty lot in most areas -- At least not one for which you'd be able to get a building permit.)

Other prices (e.g. groceries, clothes, general household goods) also follow this general trend, although not to anything like the same degree.  For many years when the exchange rate was around £1 = $1.50 it was a joke that to go from the American price to the British you just crossed out the dollar sign and wrote in a pound-sign.    Even with the overseas postage, it could be cheaper to get something sent from the U.S. than to buy it here.

The most notable exception to the price rule is insurance, especially medical.  The NHS is criticized for mix-ups, long delays and waiting lists, and inconsistency of the levels of service from area to area.  It's probably safe to say that the level of actual medical care here is not up to U.S. standards overall.   On the other hand, you don't get stuck with a huge bill if you do need hospital treatment.  Of course it's not "free" as some people would have you believe, as we pay through our taxes.    When I hear of some of my friends in the U.S. whose premium has now spiraled to over $1000 per month for their families, this is probably the one aspect of U.S. living which would be of most concern to me now.

A couple of people mentioned the friendliness of people.  I have to say that in my experience it is easier to chat to people in America on  a casual basis than it is here, and the American way is very easy to get used to.     In fact I recall walking into a small cafe just after I returned to England and saying "Hi, how are you doing?" or something along those lines.  It took a puzzled look from the girl behind the counter to make me stop and think "Oh yeah, I'm back home now."     :(

It seems to me that England has become a much less friendly place than when I was young.  One of the things I like about being out here in the boonies is that people are still much more open  and receptive to a little friendly chatter.   In the cities it seems as though the politeness, friendliness, and neigborliness that used to exist just isn't there any more.  

It's true that there are certain freedoms in America that don't exist here.  For example, if you're thinking of anything that even remotely touches upon the Second Amendment,  forget it.   The already very strict laws were made even more draconian a few years ago, and the government would  have you in jail faster than the proverbial speeding bullet.

Regarding  the monarchy, I think it's been summed up pretty well already.  Technically the queen could refuse to give royal assent to a bill from parliament (and in some cases recently I've often why we she didn't!), but I've never heard of such refusal in the 50+ years she has been monarch.  

Britain has become much less free than it used to be though, of that there is no doubt.    We are getting more and more petty, restrictive laws interfering with every little detail of our everyday lives than ever before (the same is true of the U.S. of course).  

Freedom of speech is supposedly protected here, and as others have said, you're not going to be hauled off to the Tower of London if you announce to the world that you think Tony Blair is an idiot or that the monarchy should be abolished.  

There are some very worrying trends in the direction of restricting freedom of speech though.   Over the last few years Westminster has enacted various legislation to appease the "politically correct" lobby.  There are now various discrimination laws which could be very dangerous.  When it gets to the point where people are at risk of being arrested for simply stating an opinion about those from some minority group, it's time to take a long hard look at the way we're headed.  This atmosphere has become all to pervasive these days.

Actually, the flag issue mentioned above has been raised in association with freedom of expression.  It's always been the case that you won't see flags flying here anything like as frequently as in America.  There are no Union flags automatically flown outside of courthouses, schools, post offices, and such like in this country.  

There are still some people who like to display a flag from time to time though.  The "looney left" councils in some urban districts a few years ago tried to order such residents to take down their flags, deeming them "racist."     No, I'm not kidding -- That actually happened.   Couple this sort of nonsense with the "hate" laws which are now going through the books and I think we are very much in danger of losing true freedom of expression if we're not careful.

I'm sure you're aware of the argument over the Patriot Act in the States.  Similar concerns are being raised about the anti-terror legislation which the present administration has pushed through here.     We already have politicians supporting the idea that the right to trial-by-jury should be restricted.   The Home Secretary apparently considers it perfectly acceptable to brush aside centuries of British law and hold terror suspects indefinitely without trial.    

By far the biggest threat to freedom comes from the European Union though.  This  emerging federal European government to which we've become a party is just running completely out of control.     To take one example, the concept of habeas corpus, an essential part of British/American Common law is one which is not recognized in most European countries.   They consider it perfectly acceptable to detain someone for months without charge, and certain Euro politicians have even openly stated that they regard the British rights of jury trials and habeas corpus to be quaint relics of our past which need to be eliminated.  

The law on the new EU arrest warrant is particularly disturbing.  Under this new legislation, a British citizen could be arrested and hauled off to a foreign country under their rules without a British judge even knowing about the arrest, much less examining the evidence and authorizing an extradition.    It wouldn't even have to be a British cop who carries out the arrest -- Under the proposed law the foreign country could send one of their officers to Britain.  So a foreign police officer (who might not even speak English)  would be legally allowed to come into Britain and physically remove a British citizen to answer for something, even if the person in question has never set foot in the country concerned and even if the "crime" is something which is not even illegal here.

Developments such as these cause great concern for our future freedom, especially when one looks at other aspects of the EU.   For example, a few years ago one of the EU bigwigs openly stated that in his opinion criticism of the EU was akin to blasphemy and could legally be restricted without violating the right to free speech.    

Now if that isn't grave cause for concern, what is?    That a commissioner of this suppoedly democratic group could even consider the idea that criticism of the EU should be made illegal shows their true colors.  

So yes....  Although we are still nominally free at the moment, I believe that we are very much in danger of losing those freedoms.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 02:51:58 PM by Paul_1966 »
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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2005, 02:53:10 PM »
Very well put, Paul-1966
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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2005, 03:41:58 PM »
And that still sort of scares me.... I mean look at global warming (we'll pick a subject that's in the news right now to make it easy) - I don't live in the US or China but they are huge contributors to the problem and aren't doing anything about it. That may not truly affect my day to day life but I think people who don't care about it for that reason are foolish. And I'm afraid I can't really say "to each his own" on this particular subject because we all live on the same planet and I for one am quite frightened that people's actions in other countries are destroying it. I don't think it could be any more important to at least try to know what's going on in the world, how other countries operate, and to care about what's happening outside of your own backyard.

I guess at the end of the day, for me where I live is a personal choice to make me happiest, but I've never ever ever thought of the world in terms of solidarity to/within one single country or even two. I'm remembering a hippie bumper sticker back home. Hopster come on, join me in saying it 'cause it was all over the Bay Area: "Think Globally, Act Locally."

I tend to look at it as global issues and local issues.  I would expect to hear about anything about global warming or China's trade policies no matter what country I was in.  But I don't think it's wrong that day to day news of what's going on in my own country is going to take precedence over what is going on in Europe.  The same 10 second blurb that the BBC gives to something interesting going on in Michigan is the same 10 seconds that CBS would give to something going on in Spain.

As for the litter issue, don't get me started.  There is a flee market where they must of had a 4th of July celebration that looks like a land fill.  It's been 3 days and the owners of the market have yet to clean it up.  The trash is now just blowing all over the place.  It royally pisses me off to have to see that kind of disregard for the area everyday.
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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2005, 04:07:43 PM »
The only disapointment I had when I visited England was the total disregard for keeping the landscape clean.  There was trash and graffiti everywhere!  All along the train routes, on every overpass and bridge.  It was horrible and sad to see, that such a beautiful country could let itself get so trashy and dirty.  Even Simon commented on how clean it is here in Michigan, and how you hardly ever see litter on the roadside.

Hopefully with the Olympics coming, at lease London and surrounding areas will get a good scrubbing.

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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2005, 04:55:31 PM »
The only disapointment I had when I visited England was the total disregard for keeping the landscape clean.  There was trash and graffiti everywhere!  All along the train routes, on every overpass and bridge.  It was horrible and sad to see, that such a beautiful country could let itself get so trashy and dirty.  Even Simon commented on how clean it is here in Michigan, and how you hardly ever see litter on the roadside.

I've had the complete opposite reaction. I guess it depends on where you're coming from in the US and where you've moved to in the UK. I find it much cleaner here.
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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2005, 05:20:07 PM »
I just spent July 4th in San Francisco, down at Pier 39 watching the fireworks. There must have been more than 100,000 people there and as we were walking back to the car afterwards, I remarked to my husband that if it had been in the UK, we would have been walking knee deep in litter. The place was incredibly clean, despite all the throngs of people who had spent the whole day there.

I think, as a general rule, Americans have more pride in their country and therefore take much better care of it vis-a-vis dropping litter etc.


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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2005, 05:25:31 PM »
im sorry, but i totally disagree with paul 1966, he said people are more unfriendly in britain. Im a born and bred British postman and always get lots of cheery hellos and have even been offered cake and coffee, maybe its the job, maybe its the location, but on the whole everyone seems friendly. As for the patriotism maybe you werent here for euro 2004,  but the amout of st Georges flags hanging from nearly every house or car was amazing. Just my pennies worth but im fed up with people knocking Britain. Its not always perfect but its still a damn good place to live. BTW its great that London has won the olympic bid ;D
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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2005, 05:28:02 PM »
I think, as a general rule, Americans have more pride in their country and therefore take much better care of it vis-a-vis dropping litter etc.

I have to disagree. Not a day went by in the US that I didn't see someone casually toss a McDonald's wrapper out of their car window. Not a day. Over here, you can drive down the M4 without seeing any rubbish at all. The Council has men out picking up what little rubbish there is on a regular basis -- but, honestly, there isn't much. You don't see abandoned rusted-out cars on the side of the road the way you do in the US. I have yet to see anyone's front yard in the UK littered with old washing machines and toilets. Americans talk about patriotism, but when it actually comes to looking after the country they're supposedly so proud of, they could use a few lessons.
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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2005, 05:30:05 PM »
I just spent July 4th in San Francisco, down at Pier 39 watching the fireworks. There must have been more than 100,000 people there and as we were walking back to the car afterwards, I remarked to my husband that if it had been in the UK, we would have been walking knee deep in litter. The place was incredibly clean, despite all the throngs of people who had spent the whole day there.

Though if you left that area - the big tourist attraction (or The Marina where they usually do fireworks and which is very, very rich) and went downtown you'd be dodging people's wee.  :-\\\\
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 05:35:18 PM by AnneR »


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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2005, 05:33:26 PM »
I just spent July 4th in San Francisco, down at Pier 39 watching the fireworks. There must have been more than 100,000 people there and as we were walking back to the car afterwards, I remarked to my husband that if it had been in the UK, we would have been walking knee deep in litter. The place was incredibly clean, despite all the throngs of people who had spent the whole day there.

I think, as a general rule, Americans have more pride in their country and therefore take much better care of it vis-a-vis dropping litter etc.

I guess you have never been to NYC.  London is much cleaner than NYC

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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2005, 05:35:14 PM »


It's true that there are certain freedoms in America that don't exist here.  For example, if you're thinking of anything that even remotely touches upon the Second Amendment,  forget it.   The already very strict laws were made even more draconian a few years ago, and the government would  have you in jail faster than the proverbial speeding bullet.

Some of us think that that's a very good thing.  


Quote

There are some very worrying trends in the direction of restricting freedom of speech though.   Over the last few years Westminster has enacted various legislation to appease the "politically correct" lobby.  There are now various discrimination laws which could be very dangerous.  When it gets to the point where people are at risk of being arrested for simply stating an opinion about those from some minority group, it's time to take a long hard look at the way we're headed.  This atmosphere has become all to pervasive these days.

Again,  a good thing and surprisingly worrying that you are arguing against discrimination laws and laws against hate crimes.  

Quote
Actually, the flag issue mentioned above has been raised in association with freedom of expression.  It's always been the case that you won't see flags flying here anything like as frequently as in America.  There are no Union flags automatically flown outside of courthouses, schools, post offices, and such like in this country.  

This is definitely changing.  

Quote
There are still some people who like to display a flag from time to time though.  The "looney left" councils in some urban districts a few years ago tried to order such residents to take down their flags, deeming them "racist."     No, I'm not kidding -- That actually happened.   Couple this sort of nonsense with the "hate" laws which are now going through the books and I think we are very much in danger of losing true freedom of expression if we're not careful.

Not so looney when in some areas the Union Jack is closely associated with the far right.  It's something that is changing now that more people hang flags than ever used to, but you have to admit that it is an association that many make with seeing a union jack.  

Quote
By far the biggest threat to freedom comes from the European Union though.  This  emerging federal European government to which we've become a party is just running completely out of control.     To take one example, the concept of habeas corpus, an essential part of British/American Common law is one which is not recognized in most European countries.   They consider it perfectly acceptable to detain someone for months without charge, and certain Euro politicians have even openly stated that they regard the British rights of jury trials and habeas corpus to be quaint relics of our past which need to be eliminated.  

The law on the new EU arrest warrant is particularly disturbing.  Under this new legislation, a British citizen could be arrested and hauled off to a foreign country under their rules without a British judge even knowing about the arrest, much less examining the evidence and authorizing an extradition.    It wouldn't even have to be a British cop who carries out the arrest -- Under the proposed law the foreign country could send one of their officers to Britain.  So a foreign police officer (who might not even speak English)  would be legally allowed to come into Britain and physically remove a British citizen to answer for something, even if the person in question has never set foot in the country concerned and even if the "crime" is something which is not even illegal here.

Developments such as these cause great concern for our future freedom, especially when one looks at other aspects of the EU.   For example, a few years ago one of the EU bigwigs openly stated that in his opinion criticism of the EU was akin to blasphemy and could legally be restricted without violating the right to free speech.    

Now if that isn't grave cause for concern, what is?    That a commissioner of this supposedly democratic group could even consider the idea that criticism of the EU should be made illegal shows their true colors.  




hmmm.  I thought this was a discussion about the UK, not a debate on the EU.


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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2005, 05:43:03 PM »
I've had the complete opposite reaction. I guess it depends on where you're coming from in the US and where you've moved to in the UK. I find it much cleaner here.

Wow - it must really depend then.  Michigan is very clean, on a state wide perspective, Detroit can still be a pit in some of the poor residential areas, but the state in general is very clean.  But even the downtown business areas Detroit are extremely clean.  Especially with the All Star Game coming next week, and the Super Bowl next year, they are really spiffing the place up.  It's nice to see.

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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2005, 06:53:31 PM »
There are still some people who like to display a flag from time to time though.  The "looney left" councils in some urban districts a few years ago tried to order such residents to take down their flags, deeming them "racist."     No, I'm not kidding -- That actually happened.  

Did you witness it yourself, or just read about it in the right-wing press?


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Re: What are Brits missing?
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2005, 07:05:34 PM »
I only hang the Union Jack out when the Queen is in residence.


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