Do I need a US Passport?

I can see Otterpop being perhaps slightly tongue in cheek

I do appreciate being given the benefit of the doubt, but really... it was a serious question. 
It wasn't veiled, or trying to be anything other than what it was, and it was answered within the 1st couple of replies, for which I'm grateful.

I'm glad you asked it because I would probably will have the same question in a few years. 

Well, to be fair to Jules, while I can see Otterpop being perhaps slightly tongue in cheek, the con-current discussion on children's status was, at least to my reading eyes, in a more serious vein, and it did appear that people are serious about not wanting their children to be American while not having (yet) renounced their own citizenship. I am not sure about calling anyone 'un-American' but I don't think you can just say Jules is over-reacting to 'taking the piss' (teasing or kidding in American slang) or incapable of spotting sarcasm or irony. If Jules is incapable of such than so am I as I read a number of posts that way also, that some have moved here because they do not wish to be American, and/or do not want their children to be. I am not making any value judgement on that desire, btw, to each their own.

To be fair to the mothers in that thread, not one said they didn't want to be American or that they moved here because of a desire not to be American.  Our beef is with enforced US citizenship upon foreign nationals at birth.

Our beef is with enforced US citizenship upon foreign nationals at birth.

Exactly.  And the subsequent tax and Selective Service (for males) ramifications. 

I have no interest in this debate but would just like to try and clarify a point to parents with children that were born here (U.K) to U.S citizens as I understand it.... U.S citizenship is ALWAYS implied and assumed and can definitely be renounced.... BUT this MUST be done in writing and in itself is a specific matter with applicable procedure and forms, not something aquired with dual citizenship or place of birth.....I think that's where a lot of the misunderstanding arises from.

                                     http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

To be fair to the mothers in that thread, not one said they didn't want to be American or that they moved here because of a desire not to be American.  Our beef is with enforced US citizenship upon foreign nationals at birth.

I should have added the word citizens to that, to read: that some have moved here because they do not wish to be American citizens, and/or do not want their children to be.

And to be honest, I think if your beef is about US citizenship being forced on your foreign national children that is slicing semantics at this point; you don't want them to be American citizens, you consider them foreign nationals, but you'd like to retain the option for them at some later point in time?

Interesting too, the debate, for -- forgive me if I am wrong -- you are looking at citizenship being as defined by location of birth? If your children were born in the US, would you be of the same mind, not wanting them to be forced into American citizenship? Am I wrong in assuming that you would not be a fan of dual citizenships (obviously you can't be born in two places at once unless it's Norn Iron lol)? If your children were born in the US, would you then pursue British or Irish citizenship from there for them? Would you not bother getting a US passport for them if they were to travel with you when young, and only get a British or Irish one - you might run into the same problems if you were to return to the states without the US passport. This is all hypothetical, just musings on the implications of your sentence.

So is citizenship in your mind a birthright and not a bloodright? Would you prefer if your children didn't have the option at all to be American citizens?

I am just thinking through the logic of all this. Unless you travel, it doesn't really become an issue. Personally, because of the way immigration laws change, I wanted to ensure both my kids had their US citizenship as soon as possible so they wouldn't run into any problems with claiming it later. They are also Irish and British citizens, and I did the paperwork for that for the same reason. Which one they want to exercise as their primary one when they are adults is up to them, but at least they will have all the options when/if they come to a point where they are making such a choice. Ideally, they won't have to, and will be comfortable enough in their international identity. But that's where I'm coming from. I am interested in where your position stems from. 

To be honest with you Stella and so that you understand where I'm coming from, my dislike of enforced US citizenship upon foreign nationals stems for a deep and sincere unease with the current US government and the direction in which the country is moving as a whole.  I don't want to delve into a political debate on those issues, but I do want you to understand at least part of my unease with the notion that one of my children -- not born on American soil, not registered as an American citizen is nonetheless considered a US citizen from birth.

It may be what others see as 'semantics'; however, due to my concerns above, I would rather my British child have the right to decide whether he would like to take up US citizenship, fully understanding the implications and responsibilities.  If I register him as a US citizen or if he registers himself, then this signals an acceptance of those rights and responsibilities.  But as it stands right now, there is no choice -- it's automatic.

I have no issue with my British son taking up American citizenship one day, but I want that to be a choice that he makes for himself -- not one that US government makes for him.

Exactly.  And the subsequent tax and Selective Service (for males) ramifications.

Given this country's penchant for following whatever crazy scheme the US.gov has dreamt up next, maybe this isn't the best place to be.

Why wouldn't you think gov.uk would bring back the draft if it was required for the War Against Terror™?

Maybe France would be a better option.

Ok, last question then. What's your stance on immigration? If things were as you wanted them, i.e., no automatic right of citizenship upon birth to a citizen parent while abroad (how many nations grant this, btw? I'm fairly sure Ireland does, and the UK, if the parent is the mother or married?), then how many people would be affected that don't share your politics? I mean, are you advocating for a change in the law, and what would you put in place to cover, say, pregnant travellers, people who are temporarily working abroad or whose spouses are? Would their children have to go through extra hoops upon return to the states? Or would it work that once you leave, the US should have en exit clearance type thing, you know, you leave at different levels the same way foreigners come in on different visas depending on the reason for entry? But what about people who aren't sure why they are leaving or for how long? Would they be forced to declare themselves a permanent expat? Or would that be dependent on your legal status in the new country - once you have legal status you would also have to file with the home country so that any children would be given citizenship determined by the exit status? I am thinking that in your case, which I may be reading wrong, you consider yourself permanently settled here and don't want US citizenship imposed on your child from birth, so in this scenario you would have already declared your intent and your child would not be automatically a US citizen unless he sought it.

Didn't it used to be that at 18, if one had dual citizenship due to being born abroad, you had to declare which one you choose, and that wouldn't be looked at as 'renouncing' ?

What happens when the current administration changes and things swing back in the other direction, will your stance change then, or are things too far gone do you reckon?

If this is getting too personal, let me know. I am just curious about the logistics and how things would work. Because the way you have put things, if it were put into practice, would have ramifications across the board. Not least that your son would most likely have to go through the process of immigration and seeking legal status should he want to be an American citizen - either with some benefit because of his American born mother or none at all?

To be honest with you Stella and so that you understand where I'm coming from, my dislike of enforced US citizenship upon foreign nationals stems for a deep and sincere unease with the current US government and the direction in which the country is moving as a whole.  I don't want to delve into a political debate on those issues, but I do want you to understand at least part of my unease with the notion that one of my children -- not born on American soil, not registered as an American citizen is nonetheless considered a US citizen from birth.

It may be what others see as 'semantics'; however, due to my concerns above, I would rather my British child have the right to decide whether he would like to take up US citizenship, fully understanding the implications and responsibilities.  If I register him as a US citizen or if he registers himself, then this signals an acceptance of those rights and responsibilities.  But as it stands right now, there is no choice -- it's automatic.

I have no issue with my British son taking up American citizenship one day, but I want that to be a choice that he makes for himself -- not one that US government makes for him.

Very interesting perspective and I must say I agree with your idea of taking responsibility for the citizenship you retain.  As a person with triple citizenship (Brit, Italian, American) and both a Brit and American passport, I grew up knowing the positives of having them, ex: being able to travel almost anywhere in the world, being able to skip lines at airports, having no prob buying property, etc.  But if you dig deeper and do research, you find that there is much more to it than that and there are negatives as well.  I did research on the topic of citizenship as part of a paper I wrote for a college course and found that during my stay in the countries that I am a citizen of, while entitled to the luxuries (healthcare, etc) I'm also subject to the same laws that govern the rest of the citizens of that country.  If arrested, I will be treated as a citizen and none of my other countries of citizenship can intervene; if drafted for military service, I cannot refuse.  I agree that this is a huge responsibility that needs to be understood by the person who is subject to it.  

I gained Italian citizenship because I was born in Italy and the government at that time felt that all persons born on Italian soil must be registered as a citizen or they will not be permitted to leave the country (ie. my parents could leave but they would have to leave me if they didn't register me!) They registered me but I am not sure they fully understood what having citizenship meant.  I grew up hearing things like "if you go back to Italy, they will love you!" but wasn't told the rest of the story.  As far as your son being born and growing up in UK, if you feel that strongly about the political situation in the US and would therefore prefer him to not be a citizen, you are entitled to your opinion.  However, keep in mind that growing up, he might fantasise about being American and want to take advantage of the ability to travel there.  I believe you have a responsibility to keep him informed about the citizenship/country he is entitled to as he gets older and is able to understand more.  My brothers and I grew up in Europe/England till my late childhood years, the children of a Brit mum and a partly American-raised but world-travelled dad who adopted the Brit culture and as a result, we were completely unprepared for the differences in culture, language, etc.  when we moved here (b/c our stay here was not intended to be permanent) Since we've been here, we've been raised as "Brit/Europeans living in America", with most cultural things from back home (easy as mum's Brit).  My mum always kept us up-to-date with all things from our home culture, made sure we kept in strong touch with family in UK and took my middle bro and I back for a 6-weeks visit just before I started high school.  Now that we are older, we've taken the responsibility for ourselves to keep up with our culture and plan visits.  I am planning to move back, fully understanding what I am getting myself into and understanding what I may miss out on in America.  I feel - partly based on how I was brought up and how much I am still (separate even from my mum and bros) patriotic to the country I consider home, and partly based on my dislike for how I have been treated in America and the fact that I mostly do not accept or agree with American values, that I am more in 'sync with UK culture/views/values/etc and I would like to live there.  I have lived both cultures and been exposed to both for my entire life.  Your son should be taught a balanced view of both countries so that when he is ready to make his decision, he will be able to really weigh the options, and hey, maybe he would still choose to live in UK but at least he would be able to choose what seems better for him as an individual.

That's more than one question. 

If things were as you wanted them, i.e., no automatic right of citizenship upon birth to a citizen parent while abroad

To be fair, that's not quite what I'm advocating.  I'm not saying that a child shouldn't have the right to citizenship; I am saying that if that citizenship is to be taken up, then it should be signalled by documentation (whether application of birth aboard or application of certificate of citizenship by those over 18) rather than automatically being given.  The process wouldn't be any different than it is right now.  The only difference would be that those that have not signalled their intent through documentation would not be considered US citizens from birth.

I won't address the rest of the paragraph that accompanied the above quote because I think that what I've expressed neatly sums my feelings and addresses most of your subsequent questions.

What happens when the current administration changes and things swing back in the other direction, will your stance change then, or are things too far gone do you reckon?

I have asked myself this question and honestly, I suspect that I would still hold my current views -- allow him to decide when he's old enough to understand the rights and responsibilities of US citizenship.

If this is getting too personal, let me know. I am just curious about the logistics and how things would work. Because the way you have put things, if it were put into practice, would have ramifications across the board.

No, I don't think it's too personal at all.  I think you have every right to question my beliefs, particularly as I've put them out there for comment. 

As far as your son being born and growing up in UK, if you feel that strongly about the political situation in the US and would therefore prefer him to not be a citizen, you are entitled to your opinion.  However, keep in mind that growing up, he might fantasise about being American and want to take advantage of the ability to travel there.  I believe you have a responsibility to keep him informed about the citizenship/country he is entitled to as he gets older and is able to understand more.

I couldn't agree with you more.  I also feel it's my responsibility to keep abreast of changes to US citizenship law on his behalf.

Your son should be taught a balanced view of both countries so that when he is ready to make his decision, he will be able to really weigh the options, and hey, maybe he would still choose to live in UK but at least he would be able to choose what seems better for him as an individual.

Again, I absolutely agree with you.  I will teach him as much as I can about the US and its culture.  But sadly, we won't be able to take him there for a visit unless we get him a US passport. 

I have to say that I can absolutely see where Cait is coming from. Here she has sons born in the UK who may never reside in the US, but the US government has the right to call these sons to fight a US war. What if this war were against Britain. You have a child born and raised in the UK and technically this child could be called to fight against the only country that he has ever known.

I have recently been able to get my UK citizenship becaus my mother is a UK citizen. This citizenship was not automatic for me, as I was born in the US. I had to want it, apply for, etc. I have to say that this seems like a much better system to me.

I personally am happy that my children will eventually have dual citizenship. As a family, we have not yet lived in the UK. Who knows, we too might not ever want to leave. I would not view this as anti- American. I would see it more as a personal choice and that I believe is the point that Cait is making . . . personal choice!

I would see it more as a personal choice and that I believe is the point that Cait is making . . . personal choice!

I quite agree!

I have to say that I can absolutely see where Cait is coming from. Here she has sons born in the UK who may never reside in the US, but the US government has the right to call these sons to fight a US war. What if this war were against Britain. You have a child born and raised in the UK and technically this child could be called to fight against the only country that he has ever known.

that's how I feel as well (refer to my post about Italian citizenship) - I could be drafted by the Italian or American military to fight against the country I consider home, England where I'm a citizen as well! I think it's bloody rubbish...