This Old House

A lot of houses used horse hair between floors as sound proofing (certainly up here).

Straw is a very good insulation material. but I think it needs to be quite thick. There was a program a while back where this guy built his house using bales of straw for the insulation. He actually designed the house around the dimensions of the bales. It was very interesting and gave me plenty of food for thought. (incidently this house was built in a forest and he had a heck of time with palnning permission and when he moves, he must pull it down. He is not allowed to sell it).

As CarolynB said they probably used what was in abundance and available. Witness the granite in and around Aberdeen, the sand stone a little further down the road, slate streets in the Orkneys. Too many to list but interesting.

Please post some photos when you have time   I am fond of old houses. 

I fear you would be underwhelmed!  It doesn't look like anything on a grand scale...just a simple stone Yorkshire weavers cottage-style home.

Just be careful there.  Some of the safety folk seem to be absolutely obsessed with removing every last vestige of lead and asbestos, even when the latter is not the dangerous type.  

I recall reading or hearing somewhere that the removal of asbestos sometimes causes more danger than leaving it alone.   TBH, I don't foresee problems here with asbestos or lead -- but I guess it's good to have things checked out.

(Did you find that stopcock yet? )

 

The one we're looking at we think is Grade II. I wouldn't dream of doing anything to the outside, so that's okay. The owners started to fix it up and ran out of money after the roof and the kitchen. Which explains why all the photos in the property listing are of the kitchen 

I haven't seen it in person yet, but I've sent Himself around with a camera twice. The rest of the house is intensely shabby and dirty. The bathrooms were done with execrable taste in the '70s. Seriously, I have never seen tiles so ugly in all my life. I want them photographed meticulously even if we don't buy the thing. I'll use the photos to frighten children at Hallowe'en.

If it weren't in that kind of shape, though, we couldn't dream of a house like it. Provided there isn't anything seriously structurally wrong with it, I think I can do most of what it needs myself.

I hope.

Ulp.

The one we're looking at we think is Grade II. I wouldn't dream of doing anything to the outside, so that's okay.

Although a grade I is undoubtedly going to lumber you with more restrictions than a grade II, the latter can still have restrictions on interior works.

For example, have a look at the "Repairs & Alterations to Listed Buildings" guide from the City of Westminster (PDF link at the bottom of the page):

http://www.westminster.gov.uk/environment/planning/listedbuildings.cfm

Sections  6.18 through 6.30 cover interior works.  For a start:

Consent must be obtained for all internal alterations which affect the special architectural or historic character of a listed building, whatever the grade. All proposals will be judged against policy SPG/HB1.  Proposals for the refurbishment of listed buildings should be supported by drawings which clearly identify all features of interest, and confirm their retention. Such features may include chimney pieces,
plasterwork, panelling, doors and door surrounds, staircases and balustrades.

With regard to the exterior, even though you may not intend to change anything, you may still be subject to a whole load of bureaucratic red-tape just for repairs and maintenance, not to mention if you dare to want to erect a satellite dish or anything of that sort.

Even cleaning the exterior can get you into trouble.  See section 6.10:

External cleaning of buildings with low-pressure intermittent water sprays and bristle brushes does not normally require listed building consent.

How very generous of them to let you wash your own walls.  BUT.....

Other methods of cleaning stone or brickwork may be appropriate but can have a marked effect on the character of the building and will generally require listed building consent.   The City Council therefore requires that cleaning methods are
carefully specified and appropriate for the circumstances. Where proprietary methods are to be used a method statement should be submitted for approval.

Unlike other planning laws, failure to comply with many things to do with listed buildings are classed as criminal offenses.   Note section 3.5:

67 Dean Street, Soho.  Panelled interior to first floor room. The unauthorised removal of the original eighteenth century panelling in 1989 resulted in prosecution and a fine of £14,000. The panelling has since been fully reinstated.

There are all sorts of other horrendous things lurking in listed buildings.   There is a lot more information here:

http://www.heritage.co.uk/apavilions/glstb.html

Note section 5 on repairs.  The local authority can decide that the building needs repairs and order you to carry them out.   You don't have the money?  Too bad.  They might just forcibly take your house away from you:

If a local authority consider that a listed building is not being properly preserved they may serve on the owner a 'repairs notice' under Section 115 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971. This notice must specify the works which the authority consider reasonably necessary for the proper preservation of the building and explain that if it is not complied with within 2 months the authority may make a compulsory purchase order and submit it to the Secretary of State for confirmation.

See why I'm so adamant that I would not even consider a listed building?    If you think you can live with all the restrictions though, good luck!

See why I'm so adamant that I would not even consider a listed building?    If you think you can live with all the restrictions though, good luck!

Well, we've owned part of a Grade II listed building for years. It had essentially been gutted in the years before planning permissions were so tight, so the exterior is truly all we have to worry about. And, in the case of our little piece of it, that's the roof and chimney pot and some terracotta wall tile upstairs.

That would be similarly true in this house -- it's been pretty mutilated over the years. Most of the changes we contemplated would be trying to restore it to something like its original condition. (I mean seriously -- whoever ripped out 18th C paneling in your example wants kicking to death, don't they?).

The most draconian preservation society I've ever run across is in the city I live in the States. I rented a so-called "plaque house" in the city. We weren't allowed to mess with the shower heads on account of they were 'original'. On the other hand, that's largely why that neighborhood is beautiful. (Cheez! Shower heads?!).

We weren't allowed to mess with the shower heads on account of they were 'original'.  (Cheez! Shower heads?!).

Shower heads?!

Bet you had no problems with the pulsating dips   

I rented a so-called "plaque house" in the city. We weren't allowed to mess with the shower heads on account of they were 'original'. On the other hand, that's largely why that neighborhood is beautiful. (Cheez! Shower heads?!).

Well, it was probably the Christopher Wren original, you know? 

The problem with these things is that what should be preserved is very subjective. 

Personally, I'd much rather see a lovely 1930s art deco building preserved than some of the ugly Victorian buildings which many people seem to favor.  Others would disagree, of course.

There was a push to preserve a row of old terraced Victorian workers houses near to where I lived once.  Frankly, the only possible reason I could see for preserving them was to show future generations how not to build houses.  They were the kind of tiny, cramped, crowded houses that 50 years earlier were being demolished in slum clearance programs!   All of which just goes to show how subjective this is.

I used to live on the oldest residential street in America (Benefit Street in Providence, RI). By which they meant, the houses were still residential and, on average, the oldest (as opposed to, say, colonial Williamburg, which is older but commercial). Anyhow, my apartment house was not old, it was *depression era* and they still wouldn't let the owner tear it down for putative historical reasons. He lived across the street in this huge, beautiful colonial, and he wanted us eyesores gone.

I mean, seriously. These were three 1930s three-decker houses, for nine identical apartments. So poorly made that when they were built, nobody took into account the toilets, and all the bathroom doors had a crude notch cut in them so you could open them without catching the door on the toilet seat. (I don't think they were originally built without indoor toilets).

Worst part: we were all students and knew each other. So if you went to a party at one and got really wrecked, you weren't really sure whose flat you woke in and which one was home.

I drove by there not long ago, and he'd managed to tear them all down at last.  It's just empty, scrubby lots now.

Ooh!  Ooh! Pick me to talk about horse hair, lathe and plaster!

It's excellent stuff, and not many people know how to work with it nowadays.  Quite insulating and soundproof.

I don't know how to put it together, but I have extensive experience patching it.  In bathrooms, particularly.  (You must bow now.)

If you have this stuff in your house, you'll find that sections crumble.  Inside it'll be fairly dry... and regular plaster/spackling products won't stick to it.  A product called 'Sculptamold' will.  If you can't find Sculptamold, a fine mixture of shredded paper, glue and plaster will work.  VERY FINE.  Dryer lint is a useful additive.

You can send me money anytime!

http://www.amersham.org.uk/tour/houses.htm

Paul, you mention the Art Deco buildings, there's some really interesting and unique buildings down the road from me in Amersham called High & Over:
http://www.amersham.org.uk/tour/houses.htm

If you look about halfway down the page you'll see a number of pictures of it as well as the "Sun Houses".  This was actually built in 1929, it must have seemed absolutely space-aged then.  Not Art Deco but modernist in that vein.  I can see the relation to the Greek, white Mediterranean style.

I found it interesting that they said they had to be camoflauged during WWII because the German bombers could make them out!

My grandpop used to watch that show when I was little! I used to think it was really boring. I probably would enjoy it now. 

Resurrecting an old topic I started, to give everyone a long overdue update...  <heavy sigh>  After much procrastination, year and a half (?) - we are finally getting a few things underway.  This is what has happened so far:

Feb 2005 (end of) - moved in

Spring 2005 - some roofing repair/patching done

Summer 2005 - some electrical work done/the previous owner (DIY idiot?) had everything in the house wired up to only 1 or 2 circuits - new breaker board (terminology?) & other electrical safety features installed

Aug 2005 - new combi-boiler installed; old boiler, immersion heater & loft tank ripped out (cupboards & closet to be repaired)

Feeling overwhelmed with my new life in the UK & the magnitude of this 'project', not much happens between then & quite recently.  I'm in & out of work -- finding a job to suit, getting one, getting promoted then hating it (the promotion), now have dropped back to part time hours to coordinate work on the house again.  Steve doesn't like dealing with contractors/builders, Steve's career pays the major bills, so this is more my job now (again).

In that time, we learn that our boiler installer was a cowboy & has now dropped off the radar.  After numerous calls for him to come round because the boiler wasn't hooked up properly to the timer, we finally pay a proper electrician to come & sort it out.  The radiators knock unless they are turned to full blast.  Hmmmmm.

The back porch (small utility room off the kitchen containing the washing machine) leaks a bit.  We can't locate our stopcock for shutting off all the water in the house, if, heaven forbid, something bad plumbing-wise ever happens.  Hmmmmm.

May/June 2007 - the torrential rains arrive in England.  I wake to find a a large pool of water at the far corner of the kitchen.  It's wet all down that side of the house - the roof/chimney there is leaking.  We have a roofer come & patch it finally - no more leaky there.  The bad news - the back half of our pitched (slant?) roof is shot & needs full attention asap.  It is presently traditional Yorkshire stone slate (= extremely expensive).

Hopeful, we learn about the traditional Yorkshire technique of turning the slates, so both sides are used (each should last 100+ years before complete replacement is necessary).  We begin contacting roofing contractors.

June 2007 - the boiler starts acting up.  The fault indicator light keeps switching on, blinking fast.  We get ourselves a new plumber/heating engineer (cos the cowboy is long gone) & he comes, replaces a valve.  The boiler works again.

July/August 2007 - We gather bids for doing the back roof.  Some contractors make an appt (to survey & give us an estimate) but then don't bother to show up.  Some eyeball it & give us an estimate.  Some eyeball it & then don't send an estimate.  Only one (the most expensive one, mind) actually spends time with me, explaining what's what with the roof -- he seems quite knowledgeable.  The others?  Who knows?  I never see them.  They come when I'm at work & then ring me & don't tell me very much.

We learn that our slates have already been turned -- probably about 5-10 years ago.  By someone who didn't know what they were doing & thus a job that should have lasted 100 years was compromised by poor craftsmanship, is damaged, and the majority of the slates will need to be replaced.  To put original slates on would cost between £5,000-10,000, and we're only talking half of the roof here (the back half).  Too rich for our blood.  We are going to put on modern concrete tiles (this will match what's already on the front - the front is sound & weatherproof now).

Meanwhile, I have also been gathering bids for redoing the back porch, plus a couple small windows upstairs that were never double-glazed (toilet window & small loft window).  The nicest Yorkshire man for that is also the most expensive.  I keep looking & we go with the middle bid.

The boiler begins acting up again - fault indicator light blinking fast.  Sometimes the boiler wants to work, sometimes not.  Each time I think I'll call the plumber, it's working.  So I let it go, then it stops working...  Vicious cycle.

Today (Sept 2007) -- The excitement begins!  The window installers are here.  The old porch is torn down.  They've got the frame of the new porch up.   But the surveyor didn't take the stone base of the porch quite properly into account when measuring, so it's not fitting quite right.   They have to come back tomorrow & cut the stone back a bit to one side, so the door piece & frame can slide over a bit & then will fit.  They have assured me they will make it right & throw in a freebie new sill for me.  Fingers crossed.  Until they can do that & then fit the roof, it will be exposed back there for the night.  Fortunately, we have a locking door from the kitchen to the porch, but everything had to come out of the porch (including the very hard to plumb washing machine ) -- so I have extra stuff all over the kitchen.  Hopefully, that will all be ok tomorrow & then they will finish the porch & do the two upstairs windows.

Also today -- the plumber is back!  Of course, the boiler works all morning & entire time that he is here (no blinking red fault indicator light).  The minute he leaves & drives away, the fault indicator light begins blinking again.   He mentioned if nothing else - he may have to replace the circuit board (chary mentioned this to me on an other thread) but was trying to avoid that.  He did all the diagnostic testing he could.

So I ring the plumber - Come back! Come back!  Still waiting on his call...

What else I learned from the plumber today -- picking his brains.  The radiators knock because the cowboy didn't install the new system properly - vs a vs, we have old style valves that go one way & the water is going into the radiators the other way (something like that) & they are going to knock unless they are either a) turned off or b) turned up full blast.  To correct this is going to cost approx £330 -- the radiators need to be drained & newer bi-directional valves put on them.

He also mentions again what a crappy job of installation was done on our boiler.  When he was here back in June, he cemented the fittings up at the top of it -- which had never been done.  Today, he says again it's like someone just threw that up on the wall without any thought as to what they were doing. :\\\'(

I have him look for the stopcock.  Yep - you guessed it!  Whoever redid the kitchen (before we owned the house) put these lovely new kitchen cupboards right over it.  Ejits!   Alternatively, Yorkshire Water would have the technical schematic as to where the water can be turned off outside the house, but it's likely one place to switch it off from the mains for the entire terrace row of 4 houses here.

I ring hubby -- you fancy a new kitchen?   It was done fairly recently & is the most modern/swishest room in the house, but the cupboard where the boiler is still needs to be repaired.  And if we want to get at our stopcock, it's going to mean ripping out more cupboards -- or at least cutting around the backs of them until we find it.

So tomorrow -- more fun & games with the window installers, and maybe more fun with the plumber.

Roofing work is up (tentatively) for October.  That is all.

Sorry long post, but I figure if you'd read this far, then you must be mildly interested.

Paul, you mention the Art Deco buildings, there's some really interesting and unique buildings down the road from me in Amersham

Rather a late reply; I must have missed that last year. 

This is all around the area which was being promoted as "Metro-Land" during the 1920s and 1930s.   The Metropolitan line was being extended northwest out of London, and the whole region exploded with houses as commuter travel into the city became an attractive proposition:

http://www.metroland.org.uk/

some electrical work done/the previous owner (DIY idiot?) had everything in the house wired up to only 1 or 2 circuits

Sounds about typical.....

new breaker board (terminology?)

That's a common "non techie" term.  Distribution board or distribution panel will make you sound as though you know what you're talking about.  The domestic versions of these are also often called "consumer units," a term I've never really liked myself.

We can't locate our stopcock for shutting off all the water in the house, if, heaven forbid, something bad plumbing-wise ever happens. 

That really is something you need to locate, just in case.  Stopcocks which have not been touched for years also have a nasty habit of becoming very stiff to turn, which is not a good thing to discover when you really need to turn the water off urgently.

It's a good idea to turn a stopcock off and back on again at least once a year, and also to help prevent it seizing after fully opening it, back it off a little (about 1/8 of a turn is enough to stop it seating on the gland and becoming more prone to sticking while not affecting the flow in any way).

Of course, the boiler works all morning & entire time that he is here (no blinking red fault indicator light).  The minute he leaves & drives away, the fault indicator light begins blinking again.  

Intermittent faults -- The worst of all as it always seems to be like that.   

What else I learned from the plumber today -- picking his brains.  The radiators knock because the cowboy didn't install the new system properly - vs a vs, we have old style valves that go one way & the water is going into the radiators the other way (something like that)

Do you mean that the control valves have been put on the return side of the radiator instead of the supply?   So long as the valves are otherwise O.K. I'd just swap them around.

Sorry long post, but I figure if you'd read this far, then you must be mildly interested.

I guess you won't be surprised that I read all of that!   

If you ever see the 1963 movie Father Came Too listed on the TV schedules, make a point of watching it.  I'm sure you'd appreciate it!  (About a young couple buying an old house and renovating it.)   

That really is something you need to locate, just in case.  Stopcocks which have not been touched for years also have a nasty habit of becoming very stiff to turn, which is not a good thing to discover when you really need to turn the water off urgently.

It's a good idea to turn a stopcock off and back on again at least once a year, and also to help prevent it seizing after fully opening it, back it off a little (about 1/8 of a turn is enough to stop it seating on the gland and becoming more prone to sticking while not affecting the flow in any way). 

I know!  I know!  It's been boarded over, apparently!  When the kitchen cupboards were put in.   How could they have been that stupid?!

 
Do you mean that the control valves have been put on the return side of the radiator instead of the supply?   So long as the valves are otherwise O.K. I'd just swap them around. 

I didn't entirely understand -- just that the water is trying to go into the radiator one way, and the valve is set the wrong way round for that.  I will ask him again to explain because it appears that I am going to become more familiar with this plumber...   He said if he were doing it, he'd probably put on a bi-directional valve because these are really old valves -- and the radiators will have to be drained again either way, to fix this issue.  At this point, we just want to be able to adjust the radiators without them knocking (there should be a setting between Off & Full Tilt).

I guess you won't be surprised that I read all of that! 

Naw - I knew you would, and offer helpful tips & advice.  Thanks!

I'll look for that movie or see if it's available through our Lovefilm membership.

It's taken me a long time to get more comfortable with doing all this, but even now - I still don't know what I'm doing & it's exhausting to get a grip on it all.