Hello
Guest

Sponsored Links


Topic: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)  (Read 3557 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

  • *
  • Posts: 317

  • Liked: 0
  • Joined: Feb 2005
Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« on: November 11, 2007, 09:06:38 PM »
A code which is not even mandatory in residential premises!



Paul,

Can you give me more information on this.  My H laughs at me as I do rant quit a bit about this but I want a plug in the bathroom.  I do not want to have to blow dry my hair in the kitchen because that is the only place I can access a plug.

Plus why is it at work we have a plug just two feet from the sink and in my kitchen I have a plug just two feet from my sink but heaven forbid this crazy electrician refused to put a plug in my bathroom.  Plus he went insane over the light that was in the bathroom.  It had some sort of heating element on it.  He refused to do any other work till that light was changed out. 


  • *
  • Banned
  • Posts: 6640

  • Big black panther stalking through the jungle!
  • Liked: 3
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Location: Norfolk, England
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 04:30:44 PM »
The generally accepted and followed electrical code in Britain is the I.E.E. Wiring Regulations, published and periodically revised by the the Institution of Electrical Engineers.    The first edition was way back in 1882, under the title "Rules & Regulations for the Prevention of Fire Risks arising from Electric Lighting."  Catchy, huh?   ;)     After several title changes, by the 1920s the name had settled to "Regulations for the Electrical Equipment of Buildings," which is how it remained until recent times (although obviously with many revisions to the actual content over the years).  The title has now been simplified to "Regulations for Electrical Installations" and also incorporated into British Standards as BS7671 by the British Standards Institute.

However, despite the rather official-sounding title these "regulations" never had any legal status.  They became the de facto industry standard in the U.K. and are thus followed for most professional electrical installations, except where some specialized requirement might dictate otherwise, but they were (and as far as private dwellings in England are concerned, still are) merely recommendations by the I.E.E. as to best practice.  It is these widely followed -- but not obligatory -- rules which have for decades "banned" sockets in bathrooms (with an exception for special shaver outlets).   

If you discuss this with anyone in the trade, you will probably hear about recent changes to the law and "Part P."

The actual legislation affecting houses in England comes in the form of the Building Regulations, which are divided into different sections, each covering some aspect of the construction:  Part A is basic structure, part F covers ventilation, part H is drainage and waste, etc.  Prior to January 2005 the building regulations contained absolutely nothing about electrical systems, so legally you could do anything you liked with your own internal wiring.   

Part P was added to the building regs. in January 2005 to bring wiring within their scope for the first time ever, but there is still no legal obligation to follow the I.E.E. Wiring Regulations.   Part P stipulates only vague requirements that wiring should be reasonably safe to provide protection against fire and electric shock, that information necessary to maintain the system properly must be provided, and so on.    It also introduced a requirement to notify the local building control department and pay the appropriate fees when carrying out certain electrical works, unless such work is completed by an accredited member of a recognized trade scheme.  This is line with other sections of the building regs. which allow certain works to go unreported but require notification and inspection of more major changes.

So there you have it:  Despite the recent changes and despite the fact that the I.E.E. rules are widely followed by the trade here, if you want to fit an outlet in your bathroom, then legally nobody can stop you.  Finding a "traditional" electrician willing to do the job is another matter, since most who have only ever worked in Britain and are only familiar with the British "code" have the "no sockets" idea so entrenched that there's no way they would do it.   

NOTE: These comments refer to private dwellings in England & Wales only.    The Electricity At Work Regulations passed into law a few years ago makes compliance with the I.E.E. Wiring Regs. compulsory now for commercial buildings, and north of the border the Scottish Building Regulations have referenced them for private homes as well for a good many years.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 04:36:08 PM by Paul_1966 »
From
Bar
To car
To
Gates ajar
Burma Shave

1941
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreaming of one who truly is La plus belle pour aller danser.


  • *
  • Banned
  • Posts: 6640

  • Big black panther stalking through the jungle!
  • Liked: 3
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Location: Norfolk, England
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 04:49:53 PM »
On the specific points.....

Plus why is it at work we have a plug just two feet from the sink and in my kitchen I have a plug just two feet from my sink but heaven forbid this crazy electrician refused to put a plug in my bathroom.

The key element in the "Regs." is the presence of a bathtub or shower.   There is some merit behind this, since somebody bare and immersed in water is much more susceptible to electric shock.   Get hit with 240 volts while lying in a tub of water and your chances of survival are considerably less than gitting hit with 240 volts while just standing at the kitchen sink doing the dishes.

Quote
Plus he went insane over the light that was in the bathroom.  It had some sort of heating element on it. 

Was it something like this?



These units were extremely common in the 1950s/60s/70s before central heating was as commonplace as it is today, and they are still available now, although the elements tend to be better protected.

The "Regs." have really gotten a little carried away with lighting in bathrooms and what shouldn't be installed, just in case somebody is stupid enough to play around with it while in the tub.
From
Bar
To car
To
Gates ajar
Burma Shave

1941
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreaming of one who truly is La plus belle pour aller danser.


  • *
  • Posts: 317

  • Liked: 0
  • Joined: Feb 2005
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 09:19:12 PM »
On the specific points.....

The key element in the "Regs." is the presence of a bathtub or shower.   There is some merit behind this, since somebody bare and immersed in water is much more susceptible to electric shock.   Get hit with 240 volts while lying in a tub of water and your chances of survival are considerably less than gitting hit with 240 volts while just standing at the kitchen sink doing the dishes.

Was it something like this?



These units were extremely common in the 1950s/60s/70s before central heating was as commonplace as it is today, and they are still available now, although the elements tend to be better protected.

The "Regs." have really gotten a little carried away with lighting in bathrooms and what shouldn't be installed, just in case somebody is stupid enough to play around with it while in the tub.


Yes it was that light.  Our bathroom was redone in the 80's with a very stylish blue colour sceme.  From what I understand when the Mining company updated the houses the choice was blue or pink.  I have visions of Crocket and Tubs coming and doing the work to the Miami Vice sound track!   ;D

Can I just say you rock!  Is there anything you do not know?  As your status says you really are a jedi!

Thank you for everything.  Now I feel armed with the facts to get my plug in the bathroom.  We are even planning on ways to get rid of the pull cord.  It really does just gross me out.

How can I ever thank you Paul for all the hard work and effort you have put into this post?   


  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5875

  • You'll Never Walk Alone
  • Liked: 8
  • Joined: Apr 2002
  • Location: Rochester, Kent
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 09:15:16 AM »

Was it something like this?



These units were extremely common in the 1950s/60s/70s before central heating was as commonplace as it is today, and they are still available now, although the elements tend to be better protected.

The "Regs." have really gotten a little carried away with lighting in bathrooms and what shouldn't be installed, just in case somebody is stupid enough to play around with it while in the tub.


Paul, what's your personal opinion on those types of lights/heaing units?  Especially for a moderate-sized bathroom (not tiny, but not exactly big, either).
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

- Benjamin Franklin


  • *
  • Posts: 2356

  • Liked: 36
  • Joined: Dec 2005
  • Location: West London & Slough!
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 11:50:03 AM »
Hi Peedal,

from a practical point of view, those type of circular heated elements around a bathroom light really do work!

From an aesthetic point of view - yep, like already metioned they've had their day a few decades ago!

they've now moved onto these style units

http://www.bathroomhalo.com/

No idea how much they are, but they do look alot better!

Cheers! DtM! West London & Slough UK!


  • *
  • Posts: 1929

  • Liked: 0
  • Joined: Jan 2005
  • Location: scotland
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 02:00:16 PM »
My mom had heat lights in her bathroom back home and they really did work.  They looked not all that different from the one in the link that Dennis!!!  gave. 


  • *
  • Banned
  • Posts: 6640

  • Big black panther stalking through the jungle!
  • Liked: 3
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Location: Norfolk, England
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 04:19:30 PM »
Is there anything you do not know? 

Ask me anything about sport and I wouldn't have a clue.....  :P  :D

I hope I didn't go into too much detail about the history of the wiring regulations here, but I wanted to illustrate how they developed as a voluntary code and how they are still not mandatory as far as a private home (in England or Wales) is concerned. 

You'll find a lot of misinformation around though.  Many people believe that the I.E.E. Wiring Regs. are compulsory, especially since the introduction of "Part P" in 2005.  Even some electricians and building inspectors at local councils will claim this, but I can assure you that they are wrong.  It's been a hot topic of debate in electrical forums. 

Even the (non-mandatory) content of the wiring regs. is quite often misunderstood.   The pull-cord light switches discussed in the original thread are a good example.  Many people are under the impression that the I.E.E. rules prohibit regular light switches in bathrooms completely, which has never been the case.  The rules specify only that a regular switch must not be placed where it is accessible to anyone in the tub or shower.   (Of course, in the postage-stamp sized bathrooms found in some British houses that does effectively mean that only a pull switch would be allowed, but if the bathroom is large enough to place a regular switch out of reach of the bathtub/shower, then it's fine.)

On the socket issue, I should mention that a new edition of the wiring regulations is due to come into use next year, and the "ban" on bathroom sockets is being relaxed.  Unfortunately, the new rules are only going to allow sockets mounted more than 3 meters (~10 ft.) from the edge of the bathtub, so for all but the largest bathrooms it will mean no change.

By the way, the U.K. is rare in having this "no sockets" stance.   The equivalent wiring standards in most European countries allow them.   In America, the National Electrical Code actually requires one!

Quote
Paul, what's your personal opinion on those types of lights/heaing units?  Especially for a moderate-sized bathroom (not tiny, but not exactly big, either).

I've used plenty of that style of heat/light unit in old bathrooms in the past, and would agree with Dennis that they are quite effective.  Personally, I quite like the traditional styling, but obviously that's a very subjective matter. 

The criticisms aimed at fittings like this today are that live parts are accessible without the use of tools (i.e. by removing the lamp), which is why some people have a fit at seeing something like this in a bathroom.  Personally, I don't see a problem.  My view is that a kid too young to know any better can't reach it on the ceiling, and any adult who is stupid enough to stick his finger in a light socket while standing naked in a tub of water  is probably going to kill himself one way or another anyway, so electrocution is probably as good a way as any to earn a Darwin Award.   


Quote
they've now moved onto these style units

http://www.bathroomhalo.com/

No idea how much they are, but they do look alot better!


http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SHHL1.html

And you know what's silly?   These are considered acceptable in bathrooms by the same people who blow a fuse at seeing those old units, yet you could just as easily unscrew a lamp and stick your fingers onto energized contacts if you really wanted to.

From
Bar
To car
To
Gates ajar
Burma Shave

1941
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreaming of one who truly is La plus belle pour aller danser.


  • *
  • Posts: 317

  • Liked: 0
  • Joined: Feb 2005
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 11:50:05 PM »
Hi Paul,

No you did not bore me at all.  I find it fascinating.  Everytime we go to Paris my poor long suffering H has to hear me go on and on about how they allow plugs in the bathroom.   ;)

BTW your cat is really cute.  Hope he is well spoiled!


  • *
  • Banned
  • Posts: 6640

  • Big black panther stalking through the jungle!
  • Liked: 3
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Location: Norfolk, England
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2007, 06:51:28 PM »
Everytime we go to Paris my poor long suffering H has to hear me go on and on about how they allow plugs in the bathroom.   ;)

Well, some of the wiring I've seen in France is enough to make your hair curl (without touching it!), but at least they got that right!

Quote
BTW your cat is really cute.  Hope he is well spoiled!

Oh yes!   There's a full-size version of the photo in my gallery area. 

Lucky's stretched out across my lap at the moment.  You can tell winter's on the way!   :)
From
Bar
To car
To
Gates ajar
Burma Shave

1941
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreaming of one who truly is La plus belle pour aller danser.


  • *
  • Posts: 317

  • Liked: 0
  • Joined: Feb 2005
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2007, 08:47:47 PM »
Hi Paul,

Awww that is so nice to have your cat cuddled up.  I miss mine.  Have a great weekend. 


  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5875

  • You'll Never Walk Alone
  • Liked: 8
  • Joined: Apr 2002
  • Location: Rochester, Kent
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2007, 09:43:58 AM »
Dennis & Paul - thanks for that.

And Paul, I like the "traditional" one as well, compared to the newer style.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

- Benjamin Franklin


  • *
  • Banned
  • Posts: 6640

  • Big black panther stalking through the jungle!
  • Liked: 3
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Location: Norfolk, England
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 04:43:04 PM »
From
Bar
To car
To
Gates ajar
Burma Shave

1941
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreaming of one who truly is La plus belle pour aller danser.


  • *
  • Banned
  • Posts: 6640

  • Big black panther stalking through the jungle!
  • Liked: 3
  • Joined: Feb 2005
  • Location: Norfolk, England
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 09:36:42 PM »
I thought of this thread when seeing the following report:

http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/11965411.html

How tragic.   But a reminder that however carefully we design and install things, we can do only so much.  Electricity is a wonderful slave but a dangerous master, especially when water is involved.
From
Bar
To car
To
Gates ajar
Burma Shave

1941
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreaming of one who truly is La plus belle pour aller danser.


  • *
  • Posts: 582

  • Liked: 0
  • Joined: Jun 2007
Re: Electric Sockets (was: What most surprised...)
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2007, 08:52:24 AM »
Paul,

Can you give me more information on this.  My H laughs at me as I do rant quit a bit about this but I want a plug in the bathroom.  I do not want to have to blow dry my hair in the kitchen because that is the only place I can access a plug.

Plus why is it at work we have a plug just two feet from the sink and in my kitchen I have a plug just two feet from my sink but heaven forbid this crazy electrician refused to put a plug in my bathroom.  Plus he went insane over the light that was in the bathroom.  It had some sort of heating element on it.  He refused to do any other work till that light was changed out. 

When we bought our house we converted one of the small bedrooms into an en-suite and had the electrician wire  my hair dryer into the main electricity so there is no plug.  He put in an emergency electrical shut off fuse type thing outside the bathroom door.  My British friends are all 'wowed' by this.


Sponsored Links





 

coloured_drab