Denied Visit Visa and Prospective Student

Hi All,
Perhaps I should've gone on the welcome wagon first, but I'm new and here's my story.
I am in the same boat as many of you, with a British guy I've known since 9/06 and been in a serious relationship since August 07. I have been living with him and we are absolutely crazy about each other but not ready to wed (yet).
Here is my travel history:
9/06-3/07: BUNAC visa
3/26-5/08/07: Visitor
Then Germany for 5 weeks, and:
6/11-6/22/07: Visitor, fell in love fast w/ Duncan
Home for 5 weeks earning money to come back.
8/01/07-1/31/08: Visitor for full term, planned on getting a WP but company backed out with 2 weeks to go on my leave; thus I was screwed as my time in UK as a visitor was now way over the limit.

Flew home, applied for visitor visa, was DENIED with a horrific little stamp due to previous time spent in UK as a visitor, after going on bad advice from the UKVisas helpline who said there was no actual 6/12 month limit and I could apply, no problem. Although the official reasons for the denial (since they aren't supposed to deny you outright based on the spent leave rule) were that I hadn't provided enough financial docs, and my sponsor was not a British citizen (unsigned passport copy).

2/14/08-4/14/08: Visitor; I flew back anyway and got in because a) I had a nice IO, b) I had all my documents and explained that the reason my VV to my boyfriend was denied was due to the lack of these docs in the application, and c) he only caught on to how long I actually had been there before as a visitor near the end of him stamping my passport. This seemed to make him nervous but he assured me that as I had satisfied him my intentions were genuine, I shouldn't have problems traveling in the future as long as I adhered to my conditions of leave and "kept my nose clean", and was able to state my case in the future and back it up with documents, although I would def be questioned about the denied visa.

Now, in the time I was over there, my boyfriend and I decided to apply to get our PGCEs this fall and become international teachers; we both love to travel and he doesn't want to be a supply chain manager for the rest of his life. He got in (Yay!) to Bristol and I have an interview May 12th (Crap!), which I need to be back for.
We are also flying out to Italy at the end of May for his brother's wedding, and I'd be flying back to the states in early June for my student visa application.

Basically, I really want to chance it through Gatwick one more time, rather than rush the prospective student visa (which is technically a visitor visa, and also you have to prove INTENTION TO LEAVE should you not get on the course). Those two things would be what the ECO would screw me on, given my previous visiting & visa history. Even if my student loans get processed in time for me to show proof of funds, there is always this subjectivity of the evil ECO.

I just cannot see being denied entry as I only need to be in for the interview and wedding, and have never overstayed, and the last IO said I'd be alright; I would explain that I'm well aware of being seen as a risk, and of seeming like I'm taking the piss, but I'm really not and I only need to be here for the interview and the wedding and then I'm gone in the beginning of June to apply for the student visa. I would of course be with my boyfriend, showing proof of funds and my return ticket, and my interview letter, as well as evidence that I have been in contact with an Immigration Solicitor about preparing a student visa for June.

As an aside, the immigration solicitor thinks I shouldn't risk Gatwick and feels confident my prospective student visa would be approved, and she could refute the previous denial in the new application....BUT, I do not. I have a funny feeling the ECO would be using my recent refusal and previous time in England as evidence to assume I am just trying to find any way at all of getting in the country and wouldn't leave at the end. I am a very friendly, open, articulate person and I know the rules and can explain myself; much easier to refuse me on paper than face to face.

I can neither afford another visa denial nor refusal of entry.

Opinions? And thanks a million for all who took the time to read this lengthy post.

Diana 

No advice to give, since I'm just not knowledgeable enough, but good luck to you, hope it all works out. 

I don't really have a lot of advice, but if you get denied in person- then you've just wasted a ton of money on a flight and the hassle of having to sit in immigration, then the hassle of trying to rearrange with the airline to get back on

With the return ticket and other documents, you may be okay though? I have no idea, no experience with this.  Best of luck!

Did your refusal mention the spent leave rule at all?

Thanks for the good luck, guys. I know it's really going to be down to the IO I get if I go that way.
Garry: It did, at the very bottom.
"Finally I note from your passport and your own admission in the 17 months since September 2006 you have spent a total of 14 months in the UK, 1 month in Germany and less than 6 weeks in your home country. UK Immigration Directorates Instructions state that a visitor should not normally spend more than 6 months out of any 12 months in the UK. I have considered all of the above facts and that you have failed to establish yourself in the US in terms of career, family, or property. I am not satisfied that you have sufficient ties to the US to prompt your timely departure from the UK or that you are genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated, not exceeding 6 months and intend to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit."

So it went. Of course, if I had wanted to overstay, I would've simply done so before and I'm sure the ECO knew this. The reality is that they don't want people there living on VVs even if they are supporting themselves (population control? sheer malevolence?) and the 'constructive' spent leave rule is a lot more binding than they claim.

I know that if I were to apply for the prospective student visa without being accepted into the course first (graduate level, eliminates the onus of proof of intention to leave afterward), I would probably be refused the visa in very similar wording.

I have to get back for that interview..... but I feel I am caught in a slim-to-none chance of success either way I go. 

The reality is that they don't want people there living on VVs even if they are supporting themselves (population control? sheer malevolence?) and the 'constructive' spent leave rule is a lot more binding than they claim.

I'm really trying to figure out a way to say this without being rude, but...that's why they're called visitor visas.  That's why they *have* separate visas for settlement and visiting.  Visitor visas aren't designed to be used as a substitute for proper entry clearance - if you want to live in the UK, you need to find a different way of doing so.

I understand that you *are* trying to find a different, legal way of living in the UK - but what will you do if your student visa is denied?  Will you travel to the UK anyway, taking the chance that you'll be granted entry one more time?  If you get in, will you overstay this time?  These are the questions that are going through the minds of the ECOs and the IOs - and frankly, I'm not surprised you were denied.  To be honest, I'm rather shocked that you got this far before receiving a denial.

I know you want to be with your boyfriend, and that you've built a life with him in the UK.  Unfortunately, it's just not that easy.  If you want to have any chance of securing a visa to settle in the UK for the long term, you need to spend a bit of time building a life of your own in your own country, abiding by the rules and using visitor visas to *visit*, not settle.

I hope I haven't offended you; I do wish you luck with whatever path you choose. 

Meg, that's all fine with just a single terminological correction.  A visitor visa is an entry clearance when it is issued by a consular post.  It looks just like any other entry clearance except that it's different colour and says VISITOR on it.

Diana, based upon what you wrote, it looks more like a credibility problem than anything else.  They cited from the IDI's which in fact don't have anything to do with them, but if it's a credibility issue they will use anything they can.  And you have to give them credit because under the harsh light of objectivity, you aren't really a visitor.  Even our initiative to try and get a trial relationship visa envisions only a year's duration.

I would say go straight to Italy and do the wedding.  And if your heart is absolutely dead set on playing IO roulette, you can try entering from Italy on your way back.   I say that because if you go direct from the US to Gatwick and you attract attention, you'll absolutely get a TA or a bounce.  Most likely a TA, which is basically the same.
 

Small request - please don't post queries on the board and then PM me with the same question.

Thanks,


Vicky

Thank you all for your honest replies.

Victoria, I didn't mean to break any forum rules, I just thought I would attempt to personally attract your advice before asking everyone's opinion. Sorry

I know that I shouldn't have been there so much on the VV, but as I said in my post, I had thought I was going to be flying home to apply for a work permit, and by the time the company changed it's mind I had already gone over my spent leave. Also when I originally flew to UK in August I was not intending to stay the full 6 months as I didn't anticipate the relationship to work out as well as it has.

I know what I am proposing is risky, but I honestly don't know what else to do. I just have this gut feeling that if I go for the prospective student visa, they are going to realize the same intent that I had when my visitor visa got denied; not that I would overstay, but that my hopes are to eventually settle.

I can't fly directly to Italy as the wedding is after the interview in the UK.

Thanks for all your advice, everyone.

Diana

Meg, that's all fine with just a single terminological correction.  A visitor visa is an entry clearance when it is issued by a consular post.  It looks just like any other entry clearance except that it's different colour and says VISITOR on it.

Sorry, left out a crucial word - "as a substitute for proper SETTLEMENT entry clearance."

Having done an application to a UK university I can state with certainty that most universities will do a phone interview from wherever you are. If you speak to them and explain that you're an international student and give them your US phone number, they'll probably do it that way.

When I had my interview, it actually threw them off that I was in the UK at the time. They tried all my US numbers until I called them and asked why they hadn't called me yet...

Jen, thanks for the suggestion. I'll call the PGCE office at Bristol and see if that's an option, but I'm not sure as they do only group interviews (followed by individual) for the PGCE and doing one over the phone may also put me at a disadvantage to the other applicants.

Garry, is it really that certain that I won't make it back through Gatwick? With my boyfriend in the next queue/ in my queue? The IO who let me in after my denial in February seemed to indicate that while I'd be questioned about my visa denial, as long as I had my documentation and was able to explain myself as well as I did to him, I would be fine. I do realize it is all about the particular IO, though I was hoping my entry in February (and my subsequent timely departure) would be counting in my favor this time, as would having two very good reasons for being there and having student visa plans in the very near future.

Isn't the crucial point that the IO believe my intentions are genuine, and I am well aware of the rules? With the evidence of my interview, return flight, contact with lawyer and materials for a student visa application, it seems obvious to me that I am returning to apply for a student visa!

I'd be seeking entry from the week before my interview to the week after we returned from the wedding (1st week of May to 1st week of June).

Fishing for optimism, I guess. I also wanted to add that I am sorry if I have offended anyone by seeming to be arrogant or flippant; that was not my intention. I am well aware of the spent leave rule but I can't help feeling justified in seeking entry as a visitor one last time for this interview and wedding, then having time in June to prepare an application for a proper visa (student if accepted to Bristol, fiance or marriage if not). It just seems perfectly reasonable to me, but then again I've never had an UNreasonable IO.

Thanks again everyone, please don't hate me 

Jen, thanks for the suggestion. I'll call the PGCE office at Bristol and see if that's an option, but I'm not sure as they do only group interviews (followed by individual) for the PGCE and doing one over the phone may also put me at a disadvantage to the other applicants.

Garry, is it really that certain that I won't make it back through Gatwick? With my boyfriend in the next queue/ in my queue? The IO who let me in after my denial in February seemed to indicate that while I'd be questioned about my visa denial, as long as I had my documentation and was able to explain myself as well as I did to him, I would be fine. I do realize it is all about the particular IO, though I was hoping my entry in February (and my subsequent timely departure) would be counting in my favor this time, as would having two very good reasons for being there and having student visa plans in the very near future.

Isn't the crucial point that the IO believe my intentions are genuine, and I am well aware of the rules? With the evidence of my interview, return flight, contact with lawyer and materials for a student visa application, it seems obvious to me that I am returning to apply for a student visa!

I'd be seeking entry from the week before my interview to the week after we returned from the wedding (1st week of May to 1st week of June).

Fishing for optimism, I guess. I also wanted to add that I am sorry if I have offended anyone by seeming to be arrogant or flippant; that was not my intention. I am well aware of the spent leave rule but I can't help feeling justified in seeking entry as a visitor one last time for this interview and wedding, then having time in June to prepare an application for a proper visa (student if accepted to Bristol, fiance or marriage if not). It just seems perfectly reasonable to me, but then again I've never had an UNreasonable IO.

Thanks again everyone, please don't hate me 

I don't think people will hate you.  We are just telling you what we know from reading research, and personal experiences.  It's ultimately up to you to make your decision.  We are trying to give you the best advice we can, so I hope you'll see it that way. 

Also, I did an interview that was supposed to be a group interview and in-person, but they altered the interview process for me to do it over the the phone.  I also got into the course.  Maybe that is some optimism for you. 

Lots of luck with whatever you do.   

No one hates you!    FWIW, I didn't think you came off as flippant or arrogant in your post whatsoever.  Most of us are just in shock that you managed to pull off such a series of stunts and more than a bit wary of what will happen this time if you try to enter without prior clearance.   Good luck (with the interview, as well), and let us know how things turn out!

Thank you.

Does anyone think going for the prospective student visa is a good idea (risk of Gatwick aside?) Despite ticking all the boxes for it and having all the documents and a lawyer who can address the previous denial, I am well aware that they will still see my intent as being to eventually settle long term, and thus deny me based on the fact that a prospective student should 'intend to leave' after the 6 months should he/she not gain entry on the course (which of course I hope I am accepted!)

Also, (again, my previous history aside) it is within the rules for a visitor to seek entry for the purposes of attending an interview, isn't it? Does the option of a prospective student visa mean that visitors can no longer do this?

Thanks again