Knocking two flats together/loft conversions?

We live in a very small one-bedroom flat in a traditional Edinburgh tenement, which we feel we are already starting to outgrow (and it's just two people and one birdie!), and as we feel we may want to start a family in the next couple of years, we know it will soon be too small for us. However, we absolutely love the area we live in, and really want to stay here as long as possible.

Our next door neighbours have indicated that they are probably going to be putting their flat, which is exactly the same as ours in layout, on the market in the next 6 months or so. I'm wondering if we were to purchase the flat next door, can we knock the two together? I assume this would entail all sorts of planning permission red tape and would have mortgage/insurance/roof upkeep implications... but I can't seem to find guidance on the internet anywhere.

Alternately, we are a top floor flat, and the loft above our tenement is ENORMOUS. We have already paid to have insulation laid above our flat... and in doing this I started wondering if loft conversions are even possible in tenement flats? I have been told by someone that in doing this, you would shoulder full responsibility for the upkeep of the roof, which in normal circumstances is shared between all the flats in the building (16 in my case), but this person wasn't sure that this is indeed the case.

Does anyone know anything about either of these scenarios, or who I can contact to find out? I'm just brainstorming at the moment!

thanks

Hi
Sounds like you live in a shared accomodation block of 16 flats which is probably owned by the freeholder and who's arranged for a management company to look after the building.

If so, you basically won't be able to do any of the scenario's you mention, unless you can convince the management company to in turn convince the owner/freeholder to agree.

That said, the only way to find out for sure is to arrange a meeting with the management company or owner to go over the contract and see what is and isn't allowed.

Also, just picking up on the point you made about you paying to have insulation installed - is that your responsibility or could you not get the management company to pay for it?

Things like this can be a real minefield to get through, and each management company and owner has a different contract - so best arrange that meeting and take it from there, if they sound positive, then get a lawyer, surveyor involved etc to make sure all goes through correctly.

Good luck!

DtM! West London & Slough UK!

Hi
Sounds like you live in a shared accomodation block of 16 flats which is probably owned by the freeholder and who's arranged for a management company to look after the building.

If so, you basically won't be able to do any of the scenario's you mention, unless you can convince the management company to in turn convince the owner/freeholder to agree.

but we dont have that freehold / leasehold nonsense in Scotland... 

Hi
Sounds like you live in a shared accomodation block of 16 flats which is probably owned by the freeholder and who's arranged for a management company to look after the building.

If so, you basically won't be able to do any of the scenario's you mention, unless you can convince the management company to in turn convince the owner/freeholder to agree.

That said, the only way to find out for sure is to arrange a meeting with the management company or owner to go over the contract and see what is and isn't allowed.

Also, just picking up on the point you made about you paying to have insulation installed - is that your responsibility or could you not get the management company to pay for it?

Things like this can be a real minefield to get through, and each management company and owner has a different contract - so best arrange that meeting and take it from there, if they sound positive, then get a lawyer, surveyor involved etc to make sure all goes through correctly.

Good luck!

DtM! West London & Slough UK!

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your reply. I'm in Scotland, and none of the freehold/management company stuff applies here. Each tenement building is owned and looked after jointly by the owners of the individual flats - there is no managment company involved (or freehold). All repairs/alterations to 'public areas' of the building ie roof, communal stair, outside walls, mains plumbing etc, must be arranged by and paid for by the flat owners. Which is why the idea of a single flat owner needing to shoulder the ENTIRE responsibility for roof repairs due to their loft conversion is a very big deal - cost of repairs to the roof are usually shared between all the flats in the building.

This might be slightly off topic, but it is interesting that in the past has been a HUGE problem, as every single flat owner had to agree to repairs. Under new legislation, I believe only a majority must agree, and the remaining owners can be billed by the council for their share of the bill. This was brought into effect because traditional tenement buildings were starting to fall into disrepair as essential repairs sometimes went years and years before getting carried out...all because of a single (probably absentee!) landlord couldn't be bothered paying for their share of the repair!

Anyways...I suppose I need to get some advice regarding Scottish planning permission/property law, as it is really very different from English law

having lived with two young children in a second-floor flat, i'd honestly look to move if/when considering a family.

it is so far beyond lame to traipse up and down with kids and their stuff (and yours), especially once you get above the second floor.

everyone thinks, 'oh, i'll won't have much at all, it won't be hard.'

but it is.  it really is.

and there are just SO many times when you just want to go outside - even have a place to hang your washing outside, which is a lot when you have kids - just for a breather. 

i remember when Roisin was born she got a bit jaundiced.  well, of course, they recommend taking the baby outside for a bit each day.

cue getting two little kids ready, up and down two flights of stairs with the soreness that comes right after having a baby and hit the pavement. 

it's just not well set up for family life so eventually we ended up leaving entirely and will never go back, but even a ground floor flat or first floor flat would have been a big improvement, especially if you're planning to have more than one child.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying...and I'm sure you're absolutely right. We're just starting to think ahead to those days, and haven't really considered everything just yet.

Perhaps part of our problem is that right now, living in the city centre, not having a car, and being able to walk everywhere are the things we love most about our lifestyle...we even walk to and from work together, and neither of us want to sacrifice that right now or ever, to be honest. We have the most amazing urban green space imaginable literally right on our doorstep, and a very reasonable common back garden, so we aren't wanting for good outside space either!

I guess I would like to think having a child doesn't necessarily mean having to sacrifice those things. Perhaps I am being naive, but I have friends that are raising kids in second and third floor flats  - people have done it for a very long time - and I would like to think I could too. But you're right...I'm the one thinking I won't have that much, and it won't be that hard!! 

As for looking for somewhere else, it is something we're considering... this post is merely a brainstorm to look at all our options. I absolutely do not want to live on the ground floor, but I could perhaps see us looking for something in the same area on the first floor.

Part of this is just curiosity, as well. I've seen a lot of 'double flats' on the market, and I just wonder if these were converted a long time ago, and if it is even possible to do this anymore?

Anyways, thanks for your input, expat. These are the sorts of things that are easy to overlook when thinking ahead, and it helps having someone who's done it to point them out!

It's not as bad if you have one child or if there is a larger age gap between two children.

Or you have school age children.

But for us, we couldn't leave a big gap because, tbh, I'm no spring chicken (37 and this one, our third, will definitely be our last).

It's when you've got one in a buggy and then carrying the other in the sling that it starts to bite if you're third or fourth floor.

Or one has to be lead by the hand and the other carried.

And you have some shopping or stuff.  Or you had a csection or assisted delivery and not a lot of family/friends to help out.

For us, the issue of outdoor space got to be too great and became a bit of a dealbreaker.  Some people are okay with just going to the park, but tbh it's a real bonus to be able to work in the kitchen, leave the back door open and the kids and their friends can play out in the back, to BBQ, grow a bit of fruit/veg, have a picnic or a small party, stuff like that.

I think the fabric of the city has changed quite a bit, too.

My ILs were both brought up in tenements.  BUT, back then, it was very common for children to play in the street unsupervised and not come to any harm.  And in parks as well, even at fairly young ages.  And in the communal gardens of tenements.  This is not so now and sometimes, teh communal garden is no longer communal but owned by those on the ground floor or main door flats.

For us, we found the lack of garden space more and more restrictive as the children grew.

Also, care must be taken with regard to schools, unfortunately, particularly catchments for secondary schools.  These can also increase resale value on a flat large enough to fit a family.

Before we left Edinburgh, we lived in The Shore area, which we really liked.  There were a number of double uppers, but I'm not sure when they were converted.  The ones in the converted houses it's pretty obvious, but tenement ones I'm not too sure about.

Hopefully someone will come along who has done it, but it might be worth contacting the council to see if that policy about the roof rings true.

Hiya,

Yep, fair enough on the Scottish element meaning theres a different set of rules etc. I knew there were some differences but didn't know enough about them.

Still, the usual applies, you've got to seek proper legal advice on what you can do and then of course speak to decent surveyors and architects to ensure what you can do is done properly.

from expat in scotlands response and element to think about, only you can decide if it's worth the expense to do what you can/ all of it compared to say putting those finances to a better house which makes day to day life with a young family a better scenario.

Good luck which ever way you decide to go!

Cheers, DtM! West London & Slough UK!

Not sure about knocking two flats together, but an ex-colleague is in the process of extending into the loft space in the Bruntsfield area of his tenement flat, so it's definately possible and he went through the planning department so they're obviously not refusing permission. 

I wonder though about ownership of the loft space, doesn't that belong to everyone in the tenement, so would you have to buy that off the remainder of the owners?