House of Commons debate on documents needed for ILR

An oft discussed topic here is the bundle of evidence needed when a spouse applies for Indefinite Leave to Remain after their two year probationary period.  Briefly, the SET(M) form asks for 20 documents from 5 sources spread out over the two year period.

MP Godsiff opened a debate in Commons about this requirement and questioned its reasonableness in the specific case of Muslim women.  He suggests, in short, that the Muslim family structure prevents a newly arrived spouse from collecting the needed documents and that some of his constituents have had difficulties applying for ILR.

Fair enough.  But upon reading his speech, I don't think the problem is owned EXCLUSIVELY by Muslim women as MP Godsiff suggests.  But rather I think ALL women (if not ALL people full stop) share at least some parts of the problem. 

I will have an editorial about this on Transpondia in due course, and will probably make representations at ILPA that it is inappropriate to  address the question strictly along religious lines.

But in the meantime, the speech is excellent background material for those wanting some insight in to applying for ILR.  http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm080514/halltext/80514h0004.htm

Thanks for posting this.

My issue with the application is the lack of specifics.  It gives you a list of documents you can provide to show you live together, but no where (at least that I could see) did it specify that an applicant must provide proof of marriage and proof of residence (lease agreement, mortgage statement, etc..)

Now, I provided our marriage certificate when I applied for my spousal visa in America, so if I hadn't asked on this forum, I probably wouldn't have provided it again.  Also, as there is so much to provide with the application, I could see how someone would overlook providing proof of residence.

Am I just being stupid, or is this a valid issue?

It gives you a list of documents you can provide to show you live together, but no where (at least that I could see) did it specify that an applicant must provide proof of marriage and proof of residence (lease agreement, mortgage statement, etc..)

Now, I provided our marriage certificate when I applied for my spousal visa in America, so if I hadn't asked on this forum, I probably wouldn't have provided it again.  Also, as there is so much to provide with the application, I could see how someone would overlook providing proof of residence.

Am I just being stupid, or is this a valid issue?

We never included those things in Hubs' ILR application - we've not heard anything back asking for those items. We'll see if it's an issue or not...

Thank you for the link.  I didn't read the response by Meg Hillier.

Without having been on UKY I'm not sure I would have truly understood that I needed 20 pieces of evidence and started collecting them and adding my name to bills.  I definitely see Godsiff's point.  Not that long ago I had to explain to a client that she needed to renew her visa in another year.  When she left Sudan with her British husband in a rush they both thought that was that.  The British embassy in Sudan appears to have given them no information on what happens next.  Honestly, I see the point of the BIA in needing evidence, but providing a document in a person's native language when they first get the spouse visa, no matter where that visa was issued, seem like a great start to fixing some current issues. 

Honestly, I see the point of the BIA in needing evidence, but providing a document in a person's native language when they first get the spouse visa, no matter where that visa was issued, seem like a great start to fixing some current issues. 

Are there really so many cases where this document isn't provided?  If so, that's appalling!  I applied for my FLR in person at the Liverpool PEO, and received the attached sheet of paper along with my new visa and a letter explaining my rights as a UK resident with FLR.  I've always assumed all approvals were accompanied by a similar document.

Hmm.

The feminist in me is getting a big riled by the idea that these women shouldn't be expected to have documents in their own name because in their "culture" women aren't expected to do so.

It would be nice if the requirement for ILR encouraged all women to get their own names on tenancy agreements, utility bills, bank accounts, etc. for their own future protection.

What will unfortunately happen sometimes, though, is that women won't get ILR, and just stay here illegally at the mercy of abusive husbands who threaten to report them if they don't stay in line.

Also, the statement that you have to wait until you have ILR to get a bank account isn not true.

Also, the statement that you have to wait until you have ILR to get a bank account isn not true.

I was confused by that too.  I'm wondering if what they meant was that some women have problems getting any type of documentation with their names on it, and that's the type of thing you need to submit to open a bank account.

I can definitely see how this could be an issue for people in general though, and I'm glad they're taking a look at it.

We would be screwed if I was here under the UK rules and had to come up with all that documentation.  We rent, so other than a lease in both our names, there's no monthly statement coming to us.  We each have a bank account, but no credit cards or anything like that.  Both cell phones are PAYG.  No council tax bills, no utility bills (electric is paid by putting credit on a meter in the house and we have oil heating).  The only regular things we have are SKY and Vonage, and Vonage doesn't do paper billing.  I've always kind of wondered how people handle it if they just don't have a lot of mail coming in.

There is a lot of flexibility in this already though, and I am not sure on how many refusals there are as a result of a lack of documentation.  I worry that having more documented leeway in the guidelines will lead to abuse.  It's a difficult issue.

Vicky

MP Godsiff has clearly indicated that the problem is exclusive to Muslim women.  Is this an accurate portrayal?

MP Godsiff has clearly indicated that the problem is exclusive to Muslim women.  Is this an accurate portrayal?

IMO, no.  If I hadn't arrived on a fiancee visa and spent six months laying the groundwork (bugging the council/bank/utilities to put my name on statements, going round and round with them proving I wasn't an illegal immigrant, getting them to CHANGE the name when they misspelled it or took DH's name off instead of adding mine, etc.), I never would have been able to start collecting post from day one of my FLR.  And I know I'm not the only one who has had trouble with this. 

Quite frankly (and I think this is what Yael was getting at earlier) I fail to see why the burden of proof of an existing marriage should be so heavily based on items of post, rather than other forms of documentation (references, tenancy agreements, marriage certificates, what have you).  It may not be EASY to get your name onto a utility bill, but once you've done so, it's not as if the utility companies are keeping track of whether the named occupants are still married....it's all too easy to fake a sustaining relationship through the cunning use of post, and all too easy to live a post-free life, as yankeeangel pointed out.

IMO, no.  If I hadn't arrived on a fiancee visa and spent six months laying the groundwork (bugging the council/bank/utilities to put my name on statements, going round and round with them proving I wasn't an illegal immigrant, getting them to CHANGE the name when they misspelled it or took DH's name off instead of adding mine, etc.), I never would have been able to start collecting post from day one of my FLR.  And I know I'm not the only one who has had trouble with this. 

Quite frankly (and I think this is what Yael was getting at earlier) I fail to see why the burden of proof of an existing marriage should be so heavily based on items of post, rather than other forms of documentation (references, tenancy agreements, marriage certificates, what have you).  It may not be EASY to get your name onto a utility bill, but once you've done so, it's not as if the utility companies are keeping track of whether the named occupants are still married....it's all too easy to fake a sustaining relationship through the cunning use of post, and all too easy to live a post-free life, as yankeeangel pointed out.

I completely agree with all of this. I didn't come on a fiance visa, and had a lot of trouble getting 'hard' evidence for my first month here. I know the practical solution is to start doing this before you arrive, but I just think it's kind of messed up and just shows that getting your name added to bills does not prove that two people actually live together.

I often think at the 'soft' evidence that I receive in the post. Frankly it's the wedding invitations we receive, or the birthday cards from my husband's grandmother that go a lot futher in demonstrating that we are a genuine couple than having my name on the gas bill. But of course that can all be easily forged. I don't know what the solution is, but I do think the current system is not that great.

I did not have any problems I was on bank accounts prior to getting my flr and my wife just called up the companies and they put me onto the bills in joint names, weird how they do this for some and not others and any that would not we asked them to confirm it in writting and address the letter to both of us which they did.

The trouble is I guess most people are unhelpful do not know they can do it in these companies or just can't be bothered.

We were lucky.
Indy

They'd probably need to end up doing home visits or something like that, although I'm sure people could fake that as well (thinks of Hollyoaks!).

I agree that it just isn't Muslim women.  It would be anybody trying to set up a new residence in a new country.  Not exactly sure here, but in the US they credit check everything, so my husband (the UK cit) couldn't get on any of those for at least a year or so.  Also, we're in the UK now, but living with my in-laws, so we pay them for the bills and don't have ANYTHING in our names other than the few pieces of mail from the bank and working on club cards with some stores and things.  But it is very hard especially when you aren't in your own house to have a lot of hard evidence.  So it isn't exclusive to them at all.

MP Godsiff has clearly indicated that the problem is exclusive to Muslim women.  Is this an accurate portrayal?

I don't agree.  I'm rather traditional and everything was in my husband's name for a long time.  Luckily, when I applied for FLR and then ILR, the requirements were different than they are now.  If I'd have had to come up with post with my name on it from the beginning, I think I would have had a difficult time.