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So confused on electrical issues
« on: May 23, 2008, 04:25:58 AM »
I'm a newbie here.  We're moving to London in two months!  I've learned so much already by reading through the posts on this forum--thank you!  We've spent extended time in London twice before, but this move is more long-term.  We're getting to the point where we need to get more detailed about what's coming and what's not.  I am clear that my American NTSC HDTV can't come.  What's unclear are the components.  I know if I get the right converters and adapters my DVD player, VCR and Wii should work in the UK.  However, what I am unclear on is how these items will work with a British TV that we purchase once we arrive in London.  Will these items function with a PAL TV?  Or will I need to buy a DVD player and a VCR that will play my NTSC DVD's and VHS tapes on a PAL TV?  Am I making sense?  And then what about the Wii?  Is the Wii a NTSC/PAL specific item?  Will my American Wii and Wii games work on a British TV?  I've read so much on this topic and each time I get more and more confused!

Also what is the difference between a transformer and a converter?  I know what an adapter and converter is used for, but I'm unclear what the difference is between a transformer and a converter. 

Many thanks!


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 09:38:26 AM »
Hi,

DVD players are cheap, so I wouldn't bother bringing one.  If you're really determined, you might have some luck hooking a US DVD player up to a newer UK LCD or plasma TV that can accept NTSC and PAL signals, but if you go with an older UK TV, it most likely won't be able to display an NTSC signal (which is what US DVD players and VCRs output).

The other advantage to getting a DVD player here in the UK is that it's easier to find multi-region DVD players here than it is in the US.  This is important because most of the DVD players and all the DVDs you purchase in the US are coded for region 1, while the DVDs you purchase in the UK are coded for region 2, but a lot of UK DVD players are able to play multiple regions.  For example, my girlfriend's mother gave us a DVD player she won in some sort of cheap raffle, and it plays all my US DVDs that I brought over along with all the UK DVDs I've purchased since I arrived, because it's multi-region.

So if you bring your US DVD player (region 1) to the UK, you'll only be able to play the US DVDs (region 1) that you bring with it.  You won't be able to play UK DVDs (region 2).  If you wait and buy a multi-region DVD player in the UK, (and hook it up to a newer LCD or plasma TV that can play NTSC and PAL signals) you'll be able to play your US and UK DVDs.

As for your VCR, it depends on why you're bringing it.  If you have lots of US videotapes you want to bring along to the UK, then you probably ought to bring your US VCR and hook it up to a newer LCD or plasma that can play NTSC and PAL signals.  There may be NTSC/PAL capable VCRs in the UK, but I couldn't find one on Amazon.co.uk. 

(An easier  solution to this would be bringing over all your US videotapes and having somebody make copies to DVD.  Even better, have them copied to DVD in the US, and then when you get to the UK, get a DVD player and a newer LCD or plasma TV that can play back NTSC and PAL.)

If, on the other hand, you just need a VCR to tape things once you've arrived in the UK, then again I'd just get a cheap one in the UK, as that's guaranteed to work on a UK TV.

I'm not as certain about the Wii.  From what I can find out on the internet, if you hook up your US Wii to a newer UK LCD or plasma TV that can display NTSC and PAL signals, then you should be fine. 

Hopefully someone else will chime in about transformers and converters.

good luck,
Carl


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 12:18:33 PM »
Most VCRs support NTSC and PAL here.  My husband bought a cheap one and it plays all my tapes from home.

I thought that they adpoted multi format a few years ago or so?  Maybe they just don't list as a option because not many people are looking for it?


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 06:24:53 PM »
Thanks, Carl, for you reply.  So let me make sure I understand you right.  If I bring my US DVD player (which I may not) I will only be able to play my US DVD's on it with a British TV that has PAL AND NTSC capabilities.  If I try it on a British TV without NTSC, they won't play?  I get that DVD's are coded for various world regions.  I think what's got me stuck is the idea that even I have a multi-region player that will play my US disks, will the British TV I'm using be able to display them if this British TV is only a PAL unit, not both a PAL and NTSC unit.  See what I mean.  Same goes with the Wii.  Will my US Wii games function on a PAL TV?  Perhaps I should just simplify my life and plan on not only getting a multiregion DVD player, but also a PAL AND NTSC capable TV!  The VCR would only be for the few remaining VHS tapes we have left, nothing that imporatant.  We also plan on subscribing to a cable/satellite DVR program, so we wouldn't be using the VCR for any recording.  But I suppose my US VHS will only play on a TV that is NTSC equipped, not just PAL.


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 07:07:24 PM »
Ummm, my dvd's and videos play just fine on my dh'd tv and it isn't upscale or anything. 

Dvd's are just digital, so the tv won't matter, but you will need a multi region dvd player.

Most cheap-o dvd players have codes on the internet to turn them into multi region ones.

The video tape and TV issue will depend on the player and TV you buy, but like I said ours aren't great, but they both work fine.


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 07:50:19 PM »
Hi,

I think this post covers it better than I did:

http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=12567.msg146222#msg146222

If you still have questions, come on back here and we'll try to get them answered.  :)

good luck,
Carl


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2008, 12:43:04 PM »
I'm afraid that the situation is somewhat complicated due to the varying degrees of compatibility between different pieces of equipment, which can even depend upon which way they are interconnected.

The first thing you need to keep in mind about DVD players is that the region coding is a completely separate issue from the basic video format.   While almost all general-release DVDs will be NTSC if region 1 and PAL if region 2, technically there is nothing to stop them being produced with the "wrong" region code for the format.   

The reason this point is important to keep in mind is that a multi-region player simply means that it will correctly play back a DVD with any region code.  The format of the video output will still be whatever was on the disk in the first place, unless you buy a very expensive standards-converting player which will digitally change the format (and you won't get that on any regular domestic unit). 

So you could buy a multi-region player (or get one which can be unlocked to multi-region easily) and be able to play both your American region 1 DVDs and any British region 2 DVDs you buy here, but the video output from the player will be to the appropriate American or British format, which means, of course, that the TV must be capable of displaying either.

A similar situation arises with VCRs, although without the complication of region coding.   The chances of your U.S. domestic VCR being able to work with British PAL tapes are next to nothing, but many newer U.K. machines are designed to allow playback of American NTSC tapes.   As with DVD players though, the VCR will not convert the video format, so the output will be to the normal American 525-line video format, again requiring that the TV be capable of displaying it.  By the way, while many newer U.K. VCRs will play NTSC tapes, they are not capable of recording NTSC.

It's when we come to linking the DVD or VCR to the TV that it can get more complex because there are varying degrees of compatibility with each method of connection.

Starting with an R.F. connection into the TV's antenna socket (where typically in the U.S. you then just select channel 3 or 4 on the TV), you can pretty much forget this if trying to hook up an American DVD/VCR to a British TV.  I'm not saying there isn't a rare model somewhere today which would work, but I've never seen one yet.  The tuners fitted to U.K./European models are just not designed to the correct standards.   

Next down the list is a composite video connection.  This is the complete video signal which is fully encoded to the NTSC or PAL video format and passed between the units over one connection.  You will find some TVs on the British market today which will accept an NTSC video signal in this way and display it correctly.   A large number of the higher-range plasma/LCD sets are in this category, and an increasing number of middle-range CRT models as well.  It is not universal though, so if you wanted (or needed) to connect this way, you would need to check that your intended TV will accept NTSC via the composite input.

S-video still has the color information fully encoded to the appropriate NTSC/PAL standard but simply sends it separately from the rest of the signal down a second link in the cable.  So if a U.K. TV is designed to accept NTSC on the composite video input then you can pretty much be sure it will work over S-video as well, and vice versa. 

Finally, we come to component video, which can be either individual RGB (red/green/blue) video signals or color-difference signals (output on three jacks, typically labeled Y/Pr/Pb or Y/Cr/Cb).   Component video completely bypasses all the encoding methods of NTSC and PAL and sends the individual color signals separately over multiple links. 

The basic scanning format is still different (625 lines & 25 frames per second British; 525 lines & 30 frames per second American), but since these differences are relatively minor compared to NTSC vs. PAL, there are many more TVs designed to accept either format via component video inputs.   In fact the frequencies involved are close enough that even a set not specifically intended to display the "wrong" format will often do so perfectly well.

Since component video connections offer the greatest picture quality, DVD players generally provide these outputs so you can benefit from the inherently high quality of DVD reproduction.   VCRs are less likely to offer component outputs, but some do. 

The same considerations apply to video games.  The video format will be tailored for the original market, so unless your unit can be switched to output in PAL format instead of NTSC, you will need a suitably compatible TV.  The issues of RF vs. composite/S-video vs. component video are then exactly the same as for DVD/VCR compatibility.

I have to run I'm afraid, but I'll get back on the converter vs. transformer issue later today. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 11:59:38 PM by Paul_1966 »
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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 12:13:57 AM »
Converter vs. transformer. 

A lot of people will use the terms interchangeably to refer to any unit which changes the voltage from one level to another.  Strictly speaking from the technical point of view, the terms are not synonymous. 

The most basic method for voltage conversion is the transformer, which is nothing more than lots of coils of wire and an iron core.  The types you buy to run 120V American appliances on 240V British supplies, or vice versa, are basically just much smaller versions of the transformers you see mounted on poles along the street to feed your house.   Since the transformer converts one voltage to another, you could properly term it a converter as well.

On the other hand, a converter is not necessarily a simple transformer.  Some of the voltage converters on sale change 240V to 120V (or vice versa) by using an electronic circuit.  The main advantage is cheapness, since these days the electronics cost less than a transformer with all its copper and iron content.  (Some of these electronic converters do actually include a transformer, but it is much smaller than the one which would otherwise be needed to do the same job.)

The main drawback with the cheap electronic converters is that they don't provide exactly the same type of power as you get from the regular utility line or from a simple transformer.   It's "close enough" for many applications, such as simple lights or heating devices, but can cause problems with some types of equipment, ranging from noisy operation (hash-type interference in audio equipment or actual physical noise with motors) right through to overheating in some cases. 

All things considered, I would always advise getting a proper transformer rather than using one of the cheap electronic converters. 
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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 07:53:54 AM »
It's when we come to linking the DVD or VCR to the TV that it can get more complex because there are varying degrees of compatibility with each method of connection.

I was hoping you'd chime in, Paul.  What about a SCART connection?  I've hooked up my UK DVD player to my UK LCD TV via SCART, and it plays both UK/PAL and US/NTSC DVDs without any trouble. 

I'm not trying to nitpick.  We don't have SCART in the US, so I'm unfamiliar with how it passes the signal from the player to the TV, and it may be that it's degrading the signal in some way that I'm not catching.

adios,
Carl


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 03:48:23 PM »
Carl,

Millions of Americans don't know how lucky they are that the SCART system has never caught on in the United States!

SCART (Syndicat des Constructeurs d'Appareils Radiorécepteurs et Téléviseurs -- No prizes for guessing it originated in France) didn't introduce any new interface systems as such, but was designed to provide a way of making multiple connections to existing standards by one large cable and multi-way plug.

The original SCART specification included stereo audio inputs & outputs, plus video inputs & outputs to both composite and RGB standards.  The idea was that by providing both of these options the receiving end of the link could use whichever signals were provided by the sending end of the link.  So when connecting a VCR to a TV, for example, if the VCR provided direct RGB component outputs the TV would use them as they provide the highest quality picture.  But if the VCR did not have RGB available, the TV could then use  composite video instead.    A control line was included in the SCART cable so that when equipment was switched on it could automatically cause some other piece of equipment (such as the TV) to select the appropriate AV inputs.

Since that original SCART specification, there have been several extensions, some de facto but without official sanction of the original standards committee.   One extension provides for S-video connection using two of the lines which would normally form part of the RGB direct link.  Another uses different voltages on the switching line to select 4:3 or widescreen formats.

The result of the original "include whatever signals you have" approach and the later extensions has resulted in one diabolical mess of a standard where you can never really be sure what you're getting, since a SCART socket on one piece of equipment might not provide the same input & output options as the SCART socket on another.

For example, you might have two SCART sockets on the back of a TV, but only one provides audio outputs.   One might accept composite video or RGB but not S-video, while the other might accept composite and S-video but not RGB.   For video outputs, one might provide composite only, or composite plus RGB.  Or it might be selectable for RGB or S-video.    Then you can find that the SCART audio outputs from one socket will always provide the sound from the inbuilt tuner while the audio outputs from another mirror whatever is selected for the source (tuner or another SCART/AV input). 

Sometimes when you select AV1 (or whatever number) the set will automatically choose RGB if available or go to composite/S-video otherwise.  Sometimes you have to select these options manually (hence the source options you'll see on some sets such as AV1, AV1-Y/C, AV1-RGB etc.).

Unfortunately, sometimes even the manuals don't actually specify in full what signals are available on each SCART socket and you end up having to swap cables around in a trial-and-error fashion until you find the signals you want.

That auto-switching function is also more trouble than it's worth half the time, since yet again, some SCART sockets support it while others don't.  Then if you're not careful you can end up with a situation where you switch on one piece of equipment to do something and the activated control line changes the source selection on some other piece of equipment (e.g. messing up a recording in progress).   

But to get to your specific case of DVD player to TV SCART connection, the main (or only) SCART socket on the DVD player will almost certainly provide direct RGB video outputs.  The only question then is whether the TV is actually using them or relying on the inferior composite signal instead.   

Do you have different source options for the SCART input you are using, such as AV2-RGB or similar?  If you just have one AV2 option (or whatever your SCART socket happens to be), then the set is probably selecting the RGB inputs for best quality, assuming that the SCART socket actually has RGB inputs.  The manual might tell you that somewhere.

As you can see, the whole SCART system has become one heck of a mess......   :P
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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2008, 10:40:52 AM »
Do you have different source options for the SCART input you are using, such as AV2-RGB or similar?  If you just have one AV2 option (or whatever your SCART socket happens to be), then the set is probably selecting the RGB inputs for best quality, assuming that the SCART socket actually has RGB inputs.  The manual might tell you that somewhere.

As you can see, the whole SCART system has become one heck of a mess......   :P

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the explanation.  The SCART fiasco reminds me of the HDTV standards fiasco, which has led us to 720p, 1080i, and on and on and on. 

As for my specific TV, the manual says both SCART inputs are RGB, so that answers that, and thanks to Sony for making a decent manual.   :)

adios,
Carl


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2008, 10:24:47 AM »
As you've no doubt noticed, the physical design of the SCART connectors also leaves something to be desired.   I wouldn't like to think how many times I've gone to have a look at a TV problem for a neighbor and it turns out to be just a SCART plug half out of its socket.   For a connector of that capacity which by its nature will have relatively large cables running from it, it would have been much better to have some sort of retaining mechanism, either bolts like computer D-connectors or clips like a Centronics printer port. (In one technical forum some years back this problem in conjunction with the horrible auto-select feature led us to come up with the "proper" definition of SCART as Sometimes Connects At Random Times!   ;D ).

Some of the newer TV sets with multiple SCART sockets aligned horizontally also place them too close toegether, so that with some plugs it's impossible to insert one without removing another, or in some cases so that that particular plug can't be used in a particular socket at all if an adjacent SCART is in use.

Then when people go to buy SCART cables, they often don't realize that there are different types, some fully wired on all pins and others which only provide inputs, only provide outputs, only provide composite video, etc.

There are a lot of things to like about France, but their technical standards are not among them!
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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 04:12:02 AM »
Thanks, Paul for your thorough replies to my post.  This is all super helpful.  I finally get it!  Thanks!!!


Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 09:17:14 PM »

There are a lot of things to like about France, but their technical standards are not among them!


I think 819 line SECAM might have looked quite nice...


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Re: So confused on electrical issues
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 11:00:25 AM »
I think 819 line SECAM might have looked quite nice...

Maybe I should have said some of their technical standards, like the insane way they insisted on running domestic power supplies as 3-phase even on services of 6kW or less!   :) 

The old 819-line system produced some nice high-definition monochrome pictures (I saw them a couple of times), but 819/SECAM never got beyond the experimental stage.  In the early 1960s the decision had already been taken to move to a 625-line standard and further tests on applying SECAM to the 819-line system were abandoned, so when regular color broadcasts started in France around 1967 they were on 625 only.  The 819-line transmitters continued in black-&-white until closed down in the mid-1980s.   

A similar situation occurred in the U.K. with our old 405-line TV system.   In the mid/late-1950s both the BBC and ITA experimented with adapting the American NTSC color system to our 405-line standard, but once the decision had been made around 1960 that ultimately we would change everything to 625 lines the idea of adding color to 405 was dropped.    Regular color broadcasts then started here using 625/PAL in 1967, with the old 405-line service continuing in monochrome only until the 1980s.

And just as in this country where BBC2 started in 1964 and was only ever broadcast on the "new" 625-line standard, if I recall correctly the French 819-line system only ever carried TF1, the original French network.
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