Clarifications appreciated for COA

Hi all -

My questions touch both the HSMP (now Tier 1 General) and marriage forums, but I think its got more to do w/the marriage bit.

My background: I'm on a HSMP EC due to finish its two yrs in Oct '09, after which I'll be applying for extension under Tier 1 General category for further three yrs. My UK citizen gf and I intend to get hitched Dec '09 - Jan '10

I read the "important information" pdf regarding COA at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecont...coaguidance.pdf and just wanna clear some doubts:

--- Section 4.2 states that my future spouse and I "must have at least seven days residence in a registration district before you can give your notices to marry. Those notices can be given at any designated register office, but both of you must attend together."

Furthermore, section 4.7 sates that "once your notice to marry has been accepted, the wedding can take place at any register office."


     So, am I right in interpreting that the place where we give notice to marry and the place where we actually get married can be different? For e.g., can we give notice in London and get married in another city in UK?


--- I also understand that the COA itself is valid for three months from date of issuance, meaning within that time we need to submit our notice to marry, and the notice itself is valid for one year.... is this correct?

--- Given the above, if I was to apply for COA next summer (before my current HSMP expires in Oct '09), would this in any way affect my extension under Tier 1 General?


     If yes, in what way?

     If no, then I guess the plan would/should be to apply for COA early summer '09, give notice to marry in London within three months of receiving COA, and make sure we get married within one year of that date (in a different UK city) ..... am I correct in my understanding...?


--- Also, what do we need to prove that we have "at least seven days residence in a registration district"....? I don't believe I need to worry abt for how many months my HSMP EC is valid (three months or six months)... I think those timelines aren't applicable anymore right...?

Thanks for reading and any helpful insight. I know most of this is just for clarification, and I did search before posting, but just want more senior eyes to go through my specific timelines.

     So, am I right in interpreting that the place where we give notice to marry and the place where we actually get married can be different? For e.g., can we give notice in London and get married in another city in UK?

Just to clarify, if you are using an MVV or COA, you and your fiance need to live for 7 days in the district of a *designated* registry office.  Not every registry office is designated.  The 7 days needs to be contiguous and immediately prior to giving notice.  As to proof, the standard is 'balance of probabilities', so B&B receipts or what-have-you will do.

Just to clarify, if you are using an MVV or COA, you and your fiance need to live for 7 days in the district of a *designated* registry office.  Not every registry office is designated.  The 7 days needs to be contiguous and immediately prior to giving notice.  As to proof, the standard is 'balance of probabilities', so B&B receipts or what-have-you will do.

Thanks for your reply. I went over the guidance doc and the application form this evening. Here's what I'm confused abt:

How the heck is it expected of me and my gf to stay in the same district for 7 days...? And does this "district" need to fall under the "designated registry office"?? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something here. We both are currently living in two different boroughs in London. I'm stumped. How do we find out what district/s we fall under, and what do we do if we are not living in the same district. How does this work w/ppl in different cities n' stuff... am sure I'm not the first one to confront this.... I hope I'm misinterpreting something here......   

Btw, FWIW I came across the list of "designated registered offices" here: http://www.gro.gov.uk/Images/dro_tcm69-14324.pdf

your "district" is your local borough.  call your register office at the council and they'll be able to explain it all to you.

As for the COA questions...

--- I also understand that the COA itself is valid for three months from date of issuance, meaning within that time we need to submit our notice to marry, and the notice itself is valid for one year.... is this correct?

That's absolutely right.

--- Given the above, if I was to apply for COA next summer (before my current HSMP expires in Oct '09), would this in any way affect my extension under Tier 1 General?

No, it shouldn't affect it at all.

How the heck is it expected of me and my gf to stay in the same district for 7 days...? And does this "district" need to fall under the "designated registry office"?? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something here. We both are currently living in two different boroughs in London. I'm stumped. How do we find out what district/s we fall under, and what do we do if we are not living in the same district. How does this work w/ppl in different cities n' stuff... am sure I'm not the first one to confront this.... I hope I'm misinterpreting something here......   

Kinda answering my own confusion here after talking to a registrar in the register office of my borough in London:

BOTH of you do NOT have to live in the same "district"... you could be in different districts and yet go to ANY "designated register office" to give notice to marry. Both of us will need proof that we are living in the district we say we are living for at least seven days. We could be living in different boroughs (or cities, for that matter - within England and Wales) and yet walk in to any designated register office with the required things. As for acceptable proof of you living in the borough you claim you're living... something like a utility bill or bank statement would do.

ALL register offices in London are "designated register offices", so you could walk in to any of them and give your notice. If you plan on marrying in a different place other than where you gave your notice, then on the 16th (calendar) day you can pick up the notice approval which you'll need to present when you get married.....

That makes a lot more sense. I knew something was amiss 'caus the way I (mis)interpreted things just didn't make practical sense...

As for COA... looks like if you apply three months before your EC expires, you won't have to go through the extra hassle of "proving your relationship"....

Also, on the COA application form (http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/coa/coa_form0208.pdf), section 5.8 says:

If your application for a COA is granted, do you intend to apply for permission to remain in the UK on the basis of your relationship with your partner after getting married or entering into a civil partnership? If not, please state what you intend to do.

In my case, my current 2yr HSMP EC is due to expire in Oct '09, and we aren't planning to marry until Dec '09 - Jan '10 --- i.e. by the time we get married I will have already extended my status under Tier 1 General for another three yrs. Would answering no to the question above hamper my chances of getting the COA...? Or do they just wanna know how am I gonna stay legal in the country....?

Alternatively, if I just said yes to the question and eventually went for extension under Tier 1, would it affect my Tier 1 application or any of my other future apps...?

Am I overdoing this... 

BOTH of you do NOT have to live in the same "district"... you could be in different districts and yet go to ANY "designated register office" to give notice to marry. Both of us will need proof that we are living in the district we say we are living for at least seven days. We could be living in different boroughs (or cities, for that matter - within England and Wales) and yet walk in to any designated register office with the required things. As for acceptable proof of you living in the borough you claim you're living... something like a utility bill or bank statement would do.

I'll have to disagree. 

A Registrar will not accept giving notice if the person does not meet the residency requirements within their own district.  That would defeat the whole purpose of giving notice.  Just wandering into any Registry office to give notice won't work unless the person can establish they meet the residency requirement.

I'll agree that ALMOST all the Registrars in London are designated, not all.

I'll have to disagree. 

A Registrar will not accept giving notice if the person does not meet the residency requirements within their own district.  That would defeat the whole purpose of giving notice.  Just wandering into any Registry office to give notice won't work unless the person can establish they meet the residency requirement.

I'll agree that ALMOST all the Registrars in London are designated, not all.

I knew you would respond 'caus your advise above was not matching with what the Tower Hamlets registrar told me on phone today...

So how do you see this working exactly..... my gf and I are currently in different boroughs in London. Where do we go to give notice? What if one of us moves out of London, what happens then... seems to be quite a common scenario to me, and am having a hard time believing that they require both persons who aren't married yet to live in the same borough for seven days. How is that practical/realistic..... see my confusion?

I knew you would respond 'caus your advise above was not matching with what the Tower Hamlets registrar told me on phone today...

So how do you see this working exactly..... my gf and I are currently in different boroughs in London. Where do we go to give notice? What if one of us moves out of London, what happens then... seems to be quite a common scenario to me, and am having a hard time believing that they require both persons who aren't married yet to live in the same borough for seven days. How is that practical/realistic..... see my confusion?

I see the confusion.

For absolute certain, both parties can meet the residency requirement in different districts.  That's for sure, otherwise people could only marry their neighbours, and that wouldn't work.

BUT it means each person will need to give notice to the Registry office for their own district.  It amounts to two notices actually.

This is all spelled out in excruciating detail in Section 27 of the Marriage Act of 1949.

if the persons to be married have not resided in the same registration district for the said period of seven days as aforesaid, by either of those persons to the superintendent registrar of each registration district in which one of them has resided for that period.

That means each registration district has to be notified.  And if the Tower Hamlets Registrar told you differently, they didn't understand your question, or you didn't hear it right, or they were just plain WRONG. 

For absolute certain, both parties can meet the residency requirement in different districts.  That's for sure, otherwise people could only marry their neighbours, and that wouldn't work.

Exactly!

BUT it means each person will need to give notice to the Registry office for their own district.  It amounts to two notices actually.

Thanks. http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/data/caring-for-you/data/getting-married/data/formalities.cfm also concurs w/this. Only, where do I submit the COA since we both are supposedly required to give notices to our boroughs? Assuming I'm supposed to submit the COA with "my" notice, aren't they gonna want to know that I'm "allowed" to marry my gf when she goes to her borough register office for "her" notice....?

This is all spelled out in excruciating detail in Section 27 of the Marriage Act of 1949.

if the persons to be married have not resided in the same registration district for the said period of seven days as aforesaid, by either of those persons to the superintendent registrar of each registration district in which one of them has resided for that period.

I cannot understand this sentence but I'll take your interpretation of it below 

That means each registration district has to be notified.  And if the Tower Hamlets Registrar told you differently, they didn't understand your question, or you didn't hear it right, or they were just plain WRONG. 

Yes, looks like it. I'm inclined to say I spoke to an uninformed registrar, 'caus I went over the details w/her at least three times. O well. I'm thankful for this forum  Thanks again.

I cannot understand this sentence but I'll take your interpretation of it below 

Admittedly, the drafter might have been overly inclined towards a painful belabouring of a very simple concept; but then they hadn't invented Prozac in those days.  And I'm grateful for the precision in his language.   It is paraphrased in contemporary English on your Tower Hamlets site...  "If you live in different registration districts, then each of you will need to give notice separately in your own area."

That means me, Tower Hamlets web site, HM Stationery Office, and now hopefully you are in agreement and we're all swinging from the same branch.

Onward.  The holder of a COA is required to permanently surrender it when he or she gives  notice.  In your case, the cognizant Registrar will take it and the other Registrar will verify it on the GRO system.   They are supposed to know what they are doing.  We pay them to be minimally competent, and I would be very, very surprised if they were unable to cope with this situation.

haha 

yup, we're definitely on the same page. thanks for all your advise and stopping me from drifting away from today's misleading phone call w/the registrar 

You do realise that the COA is likely to have been scrapped by Oct '09?

Vicky

You do realise that the COA is likely to have been scrapped by Oct '09?

Vicky

Hi Vicky!

No, I had no idea that was the likely plan, although I'll now keep a closer watch on this.... a potential 300 GBP saved.... if this turns out to be the case by next yr... thanks for bringing this to my attention