The British pound

Quality of life, however, is something truly subjective and the factors that impact it is different for everyone.

Precisely.  If I were in the US, I would not be paying very high insurance premiums because they would be covered by my job and my husband's job.  And I would also have what I perceive to be a higher quality of care.  So this argument

But even less money in your pocket or bank account at the end of the month isn't necessarily a conclusive argument that cost of living is higher.  For example, suppose next week you were hit by a bus (and survived) or striken by a terrible disease.  If you were treated by the NHS you wouldn't pay a penny at point of service, however you would pay through taxation, but this is arguably a lot less than having to pay for your recovery out of pocket.  Alternatively, if you were healthy to the day you die you would pay huge sums in insurance premiums over your life in the USA.

doesn't apply to me.  The opposite is true for many others though.  Whereas in any given city we all pay the same price for a loaf of bread, a gallon or pint of milk, and a can of Coke.  That's how cost of living is measured.

springhaze, I understand what you are saying but I think the lines are blurred.
If you take my accident example, in the US you could go from saving $400/month vs £50/month savings in the UK to suddently owing $20,000 in the US.  The same accident in the UK might mean you could continue saving the £50.  So theoretically you could go from the black in the US to massively in the red.  Suddenly you have to sell your house or can't afford your rent.  Your cost of living swings massively the other way.

True, it's not a day to day or month to month expense but knowing that this couldn't happen to you in the UK is definite piece of mind.  If the taxes weren't at the level they're at there's no chance this could be in place for everyone.  Probably a big part of the reason such a system could never be setup in the US unless serious changes were made (the other part obviously is having to strip and dismantle the Health Provider corporations and the lobbyists that go along with that).

Granted geeta you may have a very good job and a high skill set and that will always help you to secure good benefits through jobs.
But suppose there was a deep recession in the US and even your job went and you could not find a similar job for quite a long period of time.  You became ill or had an accident in the meantime. 

It is something people need to consider and weigh in their own mind as to how valuable this is.  You may think it will never happen but then I suppose people who have had this happen to them didn't think it would ever affect them.

I take your point that a standard "basket of goods" is often used to measure cost of living, inflation measures, etc.  But if the vast majority of Americans are having to buy health insurance whether personally or contributing through their company then why isn't this factored in?

springhaze, I understand what you are saying but I think the lines are blurred.
If you take my accident example, in the US you could go from saving $400/month vs £50/month savings in the UK to suddently owing $20,000 in the US.  The same accident in the UK might mean you could continue saving the £50.  So theoretically you could go from the black in the US to massively in the red.  Suddenly you have to sell your house or can't afford your rent.  Your cost of living swings massively the other way.

But that's not true for everyone.  And there could be plenty of reasons why you go from £50 savings in the UK to £0 savings for other reasons than an accident.  Using a catastrophic event to explain why cost of living could be the same isn't really comparing like with like.

I take your point that a standard "basket of goods" is often used to measure cost of living, inflation measures, etc.  But if the vast majority of Americans are having to buy health insurance whether personally or contributing through their company then why isn't this factored in?

Because health insurance is not the same cost for everyone and it's impossible to draw the line as to who pays what.  I understand your point that it can be a major expense but that's just not the way economists measure cost of living. 

If my husband got really sick and couldn't work, or died, I wouldn't be able to keep paying rent.   Whereas if I were in the U.S., and had the same job, I would because the salary is better.

I suppose my point is, the way economists measure cost of living and how people are actually getting by in the real world can often be completely different.  An economist might say cost of living in England is higher than cost of living in America but overall I may be better off in the UK.

I just find it a bit annoying that people so often poo-poo the UK for having such a high cost of living and how unaffordable it is before they even look at the full picture.  They almost write it off out of hand.

bookgrl, I understand your point to be that if you were on your own in same job and same rental home in UK vs US then you could only afford to do so in the US.  I do see what you're saying, I'm just saying that there are other factors which go into this and factors that aren't that far fetched which would mean you wouldn't be able to afford your home in the US were they to play out.

But you could say the same thing for the UK.

Maybe the drug my husband needs isn't covered by my local health authority so we have to pay for it ourselves?

Or perhaps I wouldn't get hit by a bus in the U.S. because there are less of them, so I got hit by a car instead and am less injured.

It is the everyday examples that have the most relevance.

Hi Matt

I agree with you - but that is EXACTLY what happens. The UK is still a 'good place to be' in the world, of that there's no doubt. However, when comparing like countries - the G8 comes to mind here, we don't fare so well as an 'overall' country. All of the high level indicators - cost of living, standard of living, quality of life and value for money (which isn't not so often discussed!) and the UK fares pretty low down. It's then the vast majority of people will 'dismiss' the UK - (beleive me I've seen it first hand - when exporters from China simply say 'we don't bother with the UK, markets too small'!) from a business and personal perspective (many examples here).

Most migrant workers coming to the UK are now not so much of the high skilled variety - still a very substantial presence but significantly less than the Euro influx of workers here for blue collar industry as well as the more basic areas of work. The UK simply doesn't offer high enough rewards, for a larger base of people than say the USA or Canada or Australia. The 'Brain Drain' is quite evident, hence alot of USA (and other country) people will say 'blah, no point going to the UK, i'll earn less and everything costs more' - only those who 'really' look into it will come over, and invariably even then, only for a few years before going back or to other places.

Over the last few years, I've used the phrase 'the UK is more and more' of a stepping stone' which is certainly how it seems to be for migrant workers, maybe less so for those here on/for personal reasons, but is still evident. Add to the mix that approx 10% of the UK's entire population is permanently or semi permanently based abroad and the figures are rising, could it be that the UK over the next generation could really lose it's shine as an overall good place to be?...

Cheers! DtM! West London & Slough UK!

I suppose my point is, the way economists measure cost of living and how people are actually getting by in the real world can often be completely different.  An economist might say cost of living in England is higher than cost of living in America but overall I may be better off in the UK.

I just find it a bit annoying that people so often poo-poo the UK for having such a high cost of living and how unaffordable it is before they even look at the full picture.  They almost write it off out of hand.

Yes, I see what you are saying.  But just keep in mind what you're talking about is not cost of living.  It's more quality of life as springhaze said earlier.  If you are 'better off in the UK' that doesn't mean that things cost less or the same as they do in the US.  It just means that for you, your quality of life is better in the UK.

My quality of life is very good in the UK.  I enjoy so much of what living here has to offer - travel, culture, proximity to Asia and Europe, diversity in my community.  But that all comes at a huge cost.  It costs me much more to have the same quality of life here than it would in the US. 

Hey Dennis, I thought I heard you say you were looking to go to Canada or the USA.  Is that still your plan?

Geeta, you say that it costs you a pretty penny to enjoy those things but by the very fact that you are in the UK must mean that on some level your quality of life is better in the UK at this moment than the US.  Or maybe I'm reading too much into that?

Geeta, you say that it costs you a pretty penny to enjoy those things but by the very fact that you are in the UK must mean that on some level your quality of life is better in the UK at this moment than the US.  Or maybe I'm reading too much into that?

I'm in the UK for my job.  I wouldn't say my quality of life is better here, really.  I choose to spend money to bring it closer to what it would be in the US.  I've saved nearly nothing since I got here - stupid maybe, but that's the choice I've made.  I could have lived very differently and saved something.  But in the US, I could have saved AND lived at a standard that I wanted.  Which is a big part of the reason why I'm glad to be moving back. 

I sort of equate it to when you are very young and get your first job and you are so thrilled to have money that you end up spending because saving's not really much fun, is it?  So then you do that for a while but eventually realise you can't keep that up forever so you start acting sensibly.  That's kind of what I've done the past 3 years.  I've loved living here and had wonderful experiences that I'd never have had otherwise.  And I've done well in my career here and made many close friends.  But I'm glad I'm being 'forced' to go back to the US, because I can finally start saving again! 

I sort of equate it to when you are very young and get your first job and you are so thrilled to have money that you end up spending because saving's not really much fun, is it?  So then you do that for a while but eventually realise you can't keep that up forever so you start acting sensibly.  That's kind of what I've done the past 3 years.  I've loved living here and had wonderful experiences that I'd never have had otherwise.  And I've done well in my career here and made many close friends.  But I'm glad I'm being 'forced' to go back to the US, because I can finally start saving again

It sounds like you enjoyed your time here, otherwise you wouldn't have stuck it out for 3 years of your life.  It's great that you got to live in another country and experience another culture and, no doubt, some European culture?

As an employee of a global company with similar opportunities possible in the US I don't think I'd do better financially there and I certainly wouldn't get perks like the amount of holiday I can get here in the UK although definitely the housing situation would be cheaper.  I wouldn't rule out a move back to the States and would be interested in the right opportunity but I think I'm going to continue to enjoy some of the cultural opportunities I mentioned in my earlier post in the UK and Europe.

Good luck in your move back to the States!

It sounds like you enjoyed your time here, otherwise you wouldn't have stuck it out for 3 years of your life.  It's great that you got to live in another country and experience another culture and, no doubt, some European culture?

Oh definitely I've enjoyed my time here.  It's not been a hardship to be here!  I'm very fortunate I was able to experience living in London for 2 and a half years, and now Edinburgh for a year.  I've had a blast!  But I wouldn't have enjoyed it nearly so much if I hadn't travelled round, gone out, taken trips back to the States to see my family, etc.  That's what made it great for me - being able to do those things.  Had I not had the money to do so, I don't think I would have liked it nearly so much.  I lived in India before the UK, and again same thing - I spent the money to make sure I had a decent quality of life and took advantage of what that experience could offer.  For me, I had the best quality of life in India without a doubt.  The only problem is it's too far away from my immediate family. 

Thanks for the good wishes on my move.

Not trying to open (re-open?  ) a tin of worms, I was going over my cost-of-living spreadsheet calculations, refining entries as information is confirmed. I'm also not saying either that it's cheaper to live in the UK and economists are all liars; nor that is more expensive to live in the UK. Anyway, for what it's worth, have a dekko for yourselves. (Just learned that phrase. Aren't I a clever girl!) These are actual monthly cost figures rounded to the nearest £/$, as the case may be. They're extremely accurate as we itemize everything for tax returns and DH in particular is anal about figures. 

US               vs.                  UK         
Housing, necessary homeowners maintenance[ & repairs
550   property tax/council tax                          90
93   building & contents ins                             12
468   utilities (elec/gas, water, trash)                   73
1061   mortgage/rent                                  1950 (£450 pw)
296  home maintenance                               0         
2468   Subtotal Housing                             2125

*Transportation
1021   auto loans, tolls, inspections, registration, petrol, oil
   changes, tyres, repairs (*both cars are now paid for, BUT
   they are 8 and 10 years old and would need to be 
        replaced if we stayed in US.                       65
158  auto ins                                              0      
1179   Subtotal Transportation                              65

Medical, dental care & insurance, co-pays and life ins.
418   health/life/dental ins                                       90
113  Med/Dent co-pay, deductibles, prescriptions, optical             0      
531   Subtotal Medical, etc.                              90

Food, clothing
165   Food, meals at lunch (no meals out)                  240
200  Clothes, dry cleaning, repairs                     400      
365   Subtotal Food, clothing                           640

$4,543  GRAND TOTAL                             £2,920 (36% cheaper)

Notes:
1)   There's no public transport where we live. No, it isn't a small town, but a suburb of a very large metropolis (Dallas/Fort Worth) where the property taxes are 1/3 cheaper and the crime is minimal. We both keep our cars an average of 8-10 years. DH does all oil changes and most repairs and car washing.

2)   Texas has no state income tax and so is supported almost entirely on the back of homeowners taxes, who also pay to subsidise poorer school districts throughout the state. (It used to be called "Robin Hood" funding; now it's called equitable distribution. (Other states have much lower property tax, but that's offset with a state income, which we don't pay. A wash, basically; 6 one way--half dozen the other.)

3)   Looking forward to repaying any old debts with a favourable exchange rate from £. We no longer have student loans, but many, many people on this forum do.

4)  That high-dollar medical insurance we pay comes with a $5,000 deductible per person! In other words, our private insurance is what's called "catastrophic insurance". It picks up the portion of the bills that we can't once it wipes out a good, solid chunk of our savings. At which point, if you lived through that, you could be starting $10,000 poorer.

And don't even think you're getting out of the Doc's surgery without a co-pay of $10-$20 a pop. Then the $10-$20 co-pay for each prescription, unless it's not on the approved list at all, so you pay the whole thing. Last year I paid $93 for a 1.4mml thimble of steroid eye drops for an eye infection.

5)   Airfare from London to visit our families is actually (and virtually always has been) cheaper than airfare within the US. (Go figure! That's always boggled my mind. What with the more generous paid holidays, our parents may actually see us more than while we live in the US.)

6)   Local entertainment. Our large metroplex has 2 museums, 1.5 zoos (yes, that's what I said) and nothing's free--London--well, it's local, plentiful and many are free. You can't walk anywhere here. My "corner" store is 1.5 miles away...and this is a heavily populated neighborhood.

7)  DH and I both wear contacts and glasses, so figure up the costs of checkups, new prescriptions, lens care products every year. Insurance won't touch it.

Housing costs seems the watch word in the UK vs. US mantra. That scared me when I first did a cursory look at the figures. As did all the wailing (justified and understandable) about utility costs going up in the UK. But when I compared my actual monthly costs of carrying my housing here vs. in the UK, well, I had to smile with relief. When I wrote that check for $628 for the electric bill alone last month, I told DH that was my catalyst for getting the "F" outta Dodge! We don't even have a freakin' pool!

9)  We're not going to buy cars in the UK. Sick of them. We'll use the Tube, trains, buses, walk and occassionally hire a car when needs must.

I think we too often forget about all the stuff that comes with maintaining housing, not just the rent. You can't live in it without utilities and water. And property taxes is as old as God here. You pay it for your own house or it's built into your rent. End of.

And the US citizen pays FICA (social security) in about the amount of the NIN tax. Difference is it gives virtually no benefits until you reach the age of retirement and then is arguably only marginally affective in the form of Medicare and a small monthly check. Meanwhile, so as long as you work, you pay it until age 65-72 before you see any benefit. (All your life, basically.)

Conclusion, don't forget economists, while comparing apples-to-apples are also generalising for the sake of brevity and simplicity. Their figures, while true and accurate don't and can't touch on the woman on the street, so to speak. I realize both DH's and my own salaries will also take a 36% hit, but for all the reasons listed above and as we'll be paid in £, at most that's makes us even, not worse off. Your mileage will vary! But, me? I'll be laughing all the way to the bank!

Hi LadyAnglesey

just looking at your figures and I find them quite puzzling. Are the timeframes monthly, quarterly or yearly? as they don't seem to be like for like. Also is the UK 'side' in GBP or in USD? and vice versa, is the US side in GBP or USD?

Reason I ask.. and looking at your catagories:

You mention '550' US side for property tax/ council tax and '90' on the UK side. Now '90' on the UK side 'sounds like' a monthly figure (in GBP)and I'd hazard a guess at a band A,B or C valued property. '550' then like for like I then read as '550' (in USD) per month in property taxes? that equates to around 6600 USD per year - my sis pays around 6K USD a year in Stockton California for a 2500 sq ft 4 bedroom home. Is the property in the UK you've used in the UK comparable? - I suspect for 90 GBP/month it's in 'Anglesey'? so would that be a 2bed or 3bed home with the same(ish) size in Sq ft?

(I of course understand theres quite a bit of variable in housing prices throughout the USA and UK - so it is kinda difficult to pin things down here - I'm just using my knowledge of the UK and USA housing pricings and ongoing costs)

next one - Buildings/Contents insurance - '93' on the US side and '12' on the UK side. '12' GBP per month sounds a very low price for both insurances - there again it's entirely possible of course.

utilities - '468' I assume is per month? in USD?  and '73' is per month in GBP here? - i suppose its possible to pay all utilities here for £73/ month - but it does 'sound' low

Mortgage/rent - bit confusing here. '1061' is your mortgage/rent payment per month in USD on the US side? and '450' is your UK payment (from the 450 pcm you mention) ? then where/how did 1950 on the UK side appear? to get 1950 from 450pcm means about 4 and a bit months timewise?  even if you take one month @ 450 GBP, thats about $800 USD, which is way off the '1950' figure you've quoted.

that part doesn't 'seem' to make sense as I read it...

You've put zero for your UK side for maintenance - is that really the case? I guess if renting it is, or is it that you 'own(ed)' a home in the US and are renting here? (I think thats what you mean there!)

Transportation

The US side seems reasonable but the UK side!!?!!   '65' GBP? covers your transportation? I'll assume its ALL public transport? for 65 a month, I really fail to see how (any) auto loan, tolls, inspections, registration/Road tax, petrol, oil changes, tyres and possible repairs can be covered!! - need more info there !

Medical

Is the US side in USD or in GBP? is the UK side in USD or GBP? - I was under the impression for the UK you do have to pay for prescriptions? £6 a pop isn't it? unless your exempt. I'm also quite sure that private medical coverage has deductibles etc too, or are you comparing your US private medical insurance with the state provided 'free at point of contact' NHS service? - remember they're not alike, so a good comparision would be for UK private health insurance.

Food/clothing - highly subjective and varies alot from shops etc so I won't really go into this one.


I'm not nit picking at your figures! they just seem initially confusing - Although right at the end I've just noticed you've put your grand total with $ for the US side and '£' for the UK side. now that mean that the 'UK' side is actually £2920 x $1.75 = $5110 USD at todays exchange rate of £1=$1.75. Which makes on those figures as the UK being approx 10% more 'Expensive'

Also, the catagories you've listed don't cover quite a few elements which are mandatory or at least pretty much a given requirement for most USA to UK (and vice versa) immigrants/movers. The TV Licence, Road Tax, telephone services, Life Insurances etc to name a few.

Those elements really would need to be considered as I'm sure likewise theres ones in the US which are needed as well that aren't currently mentioned which would give a much more accurate representation in this scenario (your particular one!) mentioned as well as on the whole for comparison purposes for others wishing to get a well rounded view.

From your listed points, most of what I mentioned above applies - a $600 electric bill, sounds alot, but was it monthly? quarterly or yearly? in each case, the view changes from 'sounds very expensive to 'thats very cheap' !

Cheers! DtM! West London & Slough UK! (where EVERYTHING is beyond ludicrously expensive!)