London Mass Transit.

The problem with air-conditioning is that the heat extracted from the interior of the car has to be dumped to the exterior.   It might be fine for the suburban reaches such as those long runs of the Metropolitan and District lines which are on the surface, but when you're inside a complex of tunnels, you'd just be increasing the ambient temperature at the stations and then as soon as the doors are opened again the heat will be back inside the train.  Across the network, it would increase power consumption drastically to achieve very little -- It's just not a practical proposition.

I completely realise that. I'm not the one complaining about how hot and nasty the tube is -- Yael was. I was merely responding.

As I said, MY view is that the tube is the tube, take it or leave it. I'm fine with the tube as it is is. I grew up with it. It doesn't bother me.

It would be more comfortable, yes, if they could air-condition those carriages. That would be nice. But it's like what people say about NYC -- you put up with things. It's a big city, a major world city, not everything is ideal but people who enjoy it for other reasons have to take the good with the bad. I was born here and the tube was just the tube, take it or leave it, since I was a baby.

I know where you are coming from, If you grow up somewhere you just learn to deal with it like it or not..Where I used to live it was 90-100F in the summer and -20 -40 in the Winter. Not ideal weather, either freezing or frying but you learn to deal with it, thats a good point you make.

[GLOBAL MOD NOTE]

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.  Calm it down or I'm locking it.  Agree to disagree people.

*edited to say that off topic comments have been deleted.

The problem with air-conditioning is that the heat extracted from the interior of the car has to be dumped to the exterior.   It might be fine for the suburban reaches such as those long runs of the Metropolitan and District lines which are on the surface, but when you're inside a complex of tunnels, you'd just be increasing the ambient temperature at the stations and then as soon as the doors are opened again the heat will be back inside the train.  Across the network, it would increase power consumption drastically to achieve very little -- It's just not a practical proposition.

That rationale doesn't really make sense since lots of cities aircondition their cars. NYC does for one and even though in the outer boroughs lots of lines run overground, they are most def in the tunnels in Manhattan. Not only that, but the stations themselves are rarely airconditioned so if the benefit was as limited as you say, the cars would be just barely cooler than the ambient and yet they're not. 

When we moved to London, the first tip we were given by my brother in law was to avoid the tube at all costs whenever possible. If we needed to take a train, take the overground if such route was available. He loves London and has lived here for over a decade but there's nothing bad about being practical.

That rationale doesn't really make sense

Sorry, but it does. The deep level tubes in London are much deeper than the NY subway. Temperature rises the deeper you go and some deep level tubes are 100 - 200 feet underground.

There are some experiments going on with cooling systems which should improve things in the summer months http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/8694.aspx  Platform fans are widely used on other metro systems, incluing little Glasgow, and shoul dmake a big difference to platform comfort.  Air conditioning can only be used on the shallower (predominently surface-level) lines as Paul and contrex have said, but they have a dedicated to team to look at other methods of on train cooling, such as the brilliant IceCube system.  It's an ongoing project.

As for investment...the problem is that a lot pf projects have had to be dumped because of the economic climate, and because of money being given to priority projects such as Crossrail and Thameslink...and the bloody Olympics.  Having said that, there is still continuous improvement works going on.  We have recently seen the opening of the new Shepherd's Bush overground station, the redevelopment of White City, and improvements to the timetabling of the Northern Line and London Overground.  There has been track improvements to the Victoria Line and the Northern Line which will continue throughout the year, and points replacements throughout the whole network. We have also seen a lot of escalator replacements and, where possible, platform lifts are being introduced to aid disabled passengers.  The improvements to Kings Cross station and the upcoming work to Blackfriars must also be noted.  There is a lot of other work in the pipeline that, frankly, I am not supposed to know about, but I think it is clear that we are in the midst of the biggest investment on infrastructure that there has ever been.

Vicky

I used to love getting on a NYC subway car in the summer.  That little respite from the heat was glorious.

Every now and again you'd see a car totally empty, and wonder what was going on until you got on it and realized the A/C was broken and it was incredibly hot inside.  After switching to the next car, you'd then have the fun of watching other people get on at subsequent stations and realize the same thing.   

Carl

The former LU East London Line has been taken into Network Rail ownership, and the service is being taken over by London Overground (A National Rail operating company like Virgin or Southern, but TfL owned and branded) and extended northwards to Highbury And Islington and southwards, running over NR tracks from New Cross Gate to serve Crystal Palace and also West Croydon. The stub to New Cross will still be served. Sexy new rolling stock, Class 378s, Bombardier Electrostars, will run - these trains will also run on London Overground North London Line services to Richmond and Watford Junction and also via Willesden Junction & Kensington Olympia to Clapham Junction. The eventual plan is to also take over the South London Line service via South Bermondsey, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill and Wandsworth Road to Clapham Junction, completing the Orbitrail scheme,  although there will not be a true circular service, to get right round, people will have to change at Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington. Circular services being notoriously difficult to regulate, hence the forthcoming Hammersmith & City / Circle "teacup" reorganisation.

Class 378 on test

You know about the 'teacup'!!!  And there was me thinking I was being discreet! 

Do you know about the Northern Line plans as well?

I am not all thrilled about the new rolling stock across the board...I shall miss the little 'C' class trains, though a lot will be shunted onto (what is currently) the H&C where I believe some of the platforms are shorter.


Vicky

The deep level tubes in London are much deeper than the NY subway.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, so for the benefit of non-train types perhaps we should explain the difference.  Many people -- including Londoners -- often refer to the whole London Underground as "The Tube," which tends to muddy the distinction between the two types of construction.

The earliest lines (Metropolitan, District, Circle) were built on the "cut & cover" principle which meant basically just digging a big trench to lay the tracks a few feet below street level, then rebuilding a roof over the top and replacing roads etc. 

The lines which followed a few years later (Bakerloo, Piccadilly, Northern  -- as they are now) are the tube lines, constructed by sinking shafts down into the ground and then boring horizontally underground to create the circular running tunnels.  They are much deeper, at an average of about 80 feet below grade.   The deepest tunnel on the system is on the Northern line at Hampstead Heath where the line runs more than 200 feet below ground level.

The Teacup is no secret...

a senior member of staff has confirmed it on record in a public forum. No more rumours, no more leaked internal documents. It's happening.

...see here...

http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/2008/07/death-of-circle-line-confirmed.html

As it says there, David Millard, manager of the Circle and Hammersmith & City Lines, told Modern Railways magazine about it in June.



The split of the Northern Line is explicitly included in TfL's transport vision for 2025.

(PDF document)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/T2025-new.pdf

When questioned by a Camden councillor, TfL said:

"Camden Tube Station cannot cope with being a major interchange as it would need major remodelling. [...] Regarding segregation, no decision has been made and there is no funding in the current investment programme."

But the current investment programme only covers spending until 2010, and they're on their way to getting planning permission for the remodelling of Camden Town.

Even now, the line is effectively split at Kennington and Mill Hill East, and on 29 Jan 2008  they instituted a split at Camden Town in the morning peak, though northbound only to get some of the benefits of segregation without sending too many commuters through the station's passageways. During the morning peak, all northbound trains from each central branch go to the same northern branch now.

In operational terms, it means all northbound trains have a straight run into the platforms at Camden rather than having to sometimes wait for a train arriving from the other central branch.

I cribbed a lot of the above from the excellent page at

http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/2008/02/northern-line-split.html

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, so for the benefit of non-train types perhaps we should explain the difference.

Very well explained, Paul, and I wonder if I might add that the deep level tube trains fit the tunnels very closely, so there is not an awful lot of air around to carry off any heat that might be removed from the trains by aircon equipment.

[Fogey time]

One thing that bugs me is when people called a Tube train "a tube". The tube is the bored tunnel in which the trains run.

A bit of brilliant engineering is the Camden Town step-plate junction completed in 1925



Looking at the bottom of that picture, if you went by the Underground line diagrams the public sees, you might think that whoever labelled it got the Bank and Charing Cross branches confused; not so, they are like that, the West End branch climbs over the City branch between Euston and Warren Street.

You guys have what some people might term an "unhealthy" interest in trains.   Not me; other people. 

Carl

You guys have what some people might term an "unhealthy" interest in trains.   Not me; other people. 

Just in case you missed it, Carl:   

http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=49787.0

Just in case you missed it, Carl:   

Hehehe!  Yeah, Paul, the people who might say y'all are obsessed with trains saw that one, too.  Not me, you understand.  Other people.   

Carl