UK Entry Refusal

I foten end up begging clients 'don't read the forums!!!'  The beauty of this one is that you get a good mix of good stories thrown in too.

Vicky

I'm not surprised American women are particularly bad about this. Who else is in exactly our position?

You see it often enough in Australia if you watch that show 'Nothing to Declare'.

Except the Aussie IO's are WAY more strict than the ones shown on Heathrow on that show 'Airport'.

Saw this chap today fly over from Indiana to Sydney.  He was unemployed and going to propose to his internet love, whom he'd never met and even though his divorce wasn't final. 

Only she wasn't there at the airport.  In fact, when the IO's called where he said she worked, they had no record of anyone with the name she was using at all.

The IO's actually felt kind of sorry for him.

Elements of the constitution are written.  The correct term would be 'uncodified'.

Jamcyrix - no, the refusal statement your gf already has would not state that she has a ban. 


Vicky

Hmm...If an individual is banned, are they informed of this? I'm a bit confused about the whole 'removal', and 'deportation' thing. As I understand it, if you are 'removed', then you are subject to a 10 year ban. We did everything were asked to do regarding turning up on the given date for the return flight home. Is this termed a removal, because as far as I'm aware, it was of no cost to my girlfriend - she wasn't asked to pay for the flight, and wasn't given an option to do so - or to leave prior to this date by her own means.

Thanks

J

I foten end up begging clients 'don't read the forums!!!'  The beauty of this one is that you get a good mix of good stories thrown in too.

Owing to a very *bizarre* chain of events, I received a phone enquiry from the chair of ARIA, the Association of Regulated Immigration Advisers, (http://www.aria-uk.org/) last month. 

One thing led to another and we decided to draw up a 'best practices code' for immigration-related web sites and what-not.  They are going to run the idea past some UKBA officials this month, and if it's well-received, to take it to the OISC in February.

Transpondia and ARIA.     Truth to the adage that politics makes strange bed fellows.

I have asked JohnL to participate in the working group for his forums.  And as you know, Vicky, I have asked you to help cheerlead if this thing takes off. 

If there's a solid committed advocate here who wants to sit on the TOR working group on behalf of UKY, you should SHOUT, otherwise I'll both hats.

Wow. This discussion has made me realize how lucky I am.

In 2003 I went to the UK visit a man I had been exchanging email with for 3 weeks.
We had talked a few times on the phone as well.
I was able to get a super deal with Delta and planned a first date visit of 4 days. I had the return ticket, about 22 dollars in cash, a credit card and a debit card. Oh, and a small airplane size bag.

Now I had traveled to Britain many times before and even was a student way back in 1979-1980. ( I was lucky that time too. I arrived with no visa or anything thinking I could just go in. I happened to have my letter of matriculation  in my purse and they gave me a student visa on the spot. It was no trouble and the IO was very sweet. )

I got to Gatwick all excited. Ready for an adventure.
(I was 43 at the time...)

When I was asked what I was doing in Britain, I blurted out that I going on a blind date! Those exact words. (What a dipstick!) I told them that we had been talking for about three weeks and we thought it was time to see if there was anything to this 'thing'.  I really thought she would be interested and had ~NOOOO idea I was in trouble.

Well that little comment got me detained in the back, questioned and searched. 'Grace' (IO's name) couldn't understand why I had so little money on me and I kept explaining that I was only here for three days, had a ticket back, and had my credit card. They asked me several times who gave me the money for the ticket.

Now, I am a middle aged mother of two and they thought I couldn't take care of myself? I was very frustrated, they wouldn't listen to me. And I was starting to get worried I would not get to meet this man. (See I was more concerned about the possible relationship than breaking the law.)  

They asked me all sorts of questions about this man I was meeting, about where he worked and about his family. They asked me where he was from and how long he had worked at his job. I answered all her questions as we already knew this stuff about each other by then.

I HONESTLY thought they were concerned for my welfare, that they were worried I was getting together with some sort of predator axe murderer type.  

Poor man, he was in the reception lounge with a big bunch of carnations waiting for me. He knew nothing about what was happening. He told me later he about to go home, unable to figure out what sort of scam I was running. No money had ever been exchanged or asked for or anything.

To make a long story short, in the end they found my date in the airport, asked him the same questions and the stories matched. Perhaps in the end they decided that we were obviously so naive that our story HAD to be true! They let me go with a stamp that is much larger than the normal and the "6months" (the time I could stay) was handwritten.

That man who was waiting for me is my husband now and we had a posh boat built to live on and called it "The Grace and Favour" in the IO's honour. It's been in magazines and all.

We have been going strong and happy now for 5.5 years now. I wish I could tell her that!

I think my grandmother really wanted me to come back to Britain, she must have been looking out for me, both times!( ancestry visa.)

Hmm...If an individual is banned, are they informed of this? I'm a bit confused about the whole 'removal', and 'deportation' thing. As I understand it, if you are 'removed', then you are subject to a 10 year ban. We did everything were asked to do regarding turning up on the given date for the return flight home. Is this termed a removal, because as far as I'm aware, it was of no cost to my girlfriend - she wasn't asked to pay for the flight, and wasn't given an option to do so - or to leave prior to this date by her own means.

Did you read the links I gave you for the immigration rules? That explains the bans quite comprehensively.  Basically, you will know if you have committed one of the offenses which will result in the ban, therefore you might just want to not bother applying.

Your gf was refused entry and probably issued with a removal notice...she should have kept this (hopefully).   

Vicky

Abercroft, what a beautiful story!  It made me tear up.  I'm so glad things worked out for you!

And while this is specaled all over the forums here, basically in hopefully plain English:

• Banned - Not allowed to enter the UK.
• Refused - Turned away from the UK before entering the UK.  Somewhat serious, depending on the reasons, but usually not a "forever" thing if the reasons for the refusal are addressed.  For example someone coming in as a visitor, but not qualifying as a visitor.
• Removal - Being formally ordered to leave the UK after entering the UK.  This can be because you have borken the conditions of your entry into the UK and have gotten caught.
• Deportation - Formal court proceedings to remove someone from the UK.

In a strangeness of the OPs situation, the UK has this concept of allowing someone to "stay" in the UK for a short time without officially "entering" the UK when they are refused for before having to leave.  If that occurs, that is still just a "refusal" if the person leaves when agreed, versus a removal or deportation.

Actually, Kitson, this is what I am not sure of.  I have seen people granted Temporary Admission, and then removed from the UK, and that being classed as 'removal'.

It won't really matter in this case though.


Vicky

In a strangeness of the OPs situation, the UK has this concept of allowing someone to "stay" in the UK for a short time without officially "entering" the UK when they are refused for before having to leave.  If that occurs, that is still just a "refusal" if the person leaves when agreed, versus a removal or deportation.

Adding on to your excellent post that time on TA is legally classified as time in detention.  So although the person is within the borders, they are 'technically' in custody, so it doesn't count as entering the UK.

People have to input the data.  That's a problem.  Somebody has to gather the data.  That's a problem.  Somebody has to send the emails.  That's a BIG problem.  Somebody has to accept accountability for transport of the email.  That's a major problem.

And somebody has to pay for all of that.  Who?

Too many problems.  Even the BNP will fight against ESTA.
They are the people and organizations who have a stake in the way things work.  Part of the British constitution says stakeholders need to be involved and to have a say in what's going on. 

I see... Thanks for your answer, and sorry for being so naive. I'm fairly new to all of this, but I should have known that all options have already been carefully examined over and over and over by people who actually know what they are talking about...

And as we are at that, thank to all the people on this forum for taking the time to be so helpful and informative.

And while this is specaled all over the forums here, basically in hopefully plain English:

• Banned - Not allowed to enter the UK.
• Refused - Turned away from the UK before entering the UK.  Somewhat serious, depending on the reasons, but usually not a "forever" thing if the reasons for the refusal are addressed.  For example someone coming in as a visitor, but not qualifying as a visitor.
• Removal - Being formally ordered to leave the UK after entering the UK.  This can be because you have borken the conditions of your entry into the UK and have gotten caught.
• Deportation - Formal court proceedings to remove someone from the UK.

In a strangeness of the OPs situation, the UK has this concept of allowing someone to "stay" in the UK for a short time without officially "entering" the UK when they are refused for before having to leave.  If that occurs, that is still just a "refusal" if the person leaves when agreed, versus a removal or deportation.

Thanks for the clarification, and apologies to Victoria for my lack of understanding of previously given rules and guidelines.


So, given that my girlfriend left the UK voluntarily, and without expense to the government or tax-payer in early August, the following information indicates a 1 year ban. Right?
Does this ban apply from the date on which she left the UK?

Mandatory Refusal for Breach of Immigration Rules

Changes to the Immigration Rules will make it mandatory to refuse future applications for a set period of time if the applicant has previously breached UK immigration law.

From 29 February 2008
Any application in which deception is used will automatically be refused.

From 1 April 2008
A set period of automatic refusal is being introduced if an applicant has:

Overstayed – that is, remained in the UK for longer than permitted
Entered the UK illegally
Used deception – for example, by submitting false documents
Breached their conditions of leave – for example, by working illegally
The use of deception will lead to automatic refusal of all future applications for 10 years.

People who leave the UK voluntarily at their own expense within 28 days of the breach occurring will not be penalised, but in all other circumstances overstaying, entering illegally or breaching the conditions of leave will lead to future applications being refused as per the following schedule:

For 1 year – if the applicant left the UK voluntarily and at their own expense
For 5 years – if the applicant left the UK voluntarily at public expense
For 10 years – if the applicant was removed or deported from the UK


Thanks

J

I am not sure about this.  Was she given a refusal notice?  Was the return portion of her ticket given back to the airline by way of 'payment' for the flight or does she still have that?

And don't forget..the ban doesn't apply in settlement cases.


Vicky

I am not sure about this.  Was she given a refusal notice?  Was the return portion of her ticket given back to the airline by way of 'payment' for the flight or does she still have that?

And don't forget..the ban doesn't apply in settlement cases.


Vicky

She was given a refusal notice but as far as I am aware, she still has the (presumably usable) return part of the ticket. I will have to check with her on this.

I read this on another forum:

"Most countries impose an obligation on the airlines to ensure that passengers are meeting the basic entry requirements before allowing them to board the flight. These requirements usually include proper visa if required, an onward or return air ticket and a valid passport.

The arrival carrier is usually responsible for your removal if you’re refused entry. They will just use the onward or return air ticket to remove you.

Most countries also impose a fine on the airlines if they bring passengers without proper documentation or not meeting the basic entry requirements. Passengers arriving without the required visa or an expired passport are two typical examples."

So, maybe the return part of the ticket is now unusable.

Thanks

J

Don't people refer to 'volunteer work' rather than just 'volunteering'?

Vicky

I think there's a subtle difference maybe. To my mind volunteering == charitable work. Volunteer work == work that normally people might be paid to do but for one reason or another you're not being paid.  I'm not sure I'd pick up on some of the distinctions pointed out in this thread and I usually aim to follow the rules to a T. Its very interesting.

To someone else's earlier comment... I never thought to look at "rules for visitors" as it never crossed my mind. I don't usually do things I consider breaking the rules and never thought, before now, that there would be such fine lines that I'd even need to worry about what the rules are so I don't break them (if that makes sense). I guess I have always figured most, if not all, rules for visitors would be common sense. Its good to know to check that out next time I go someplace as I really hadn't thought about it (and I dont' think i really am a person that generally lacks common sense).