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Topic: UK Entry Refusal  (Read 7764 times)

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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2009, 10:19:40 AM »
I find it insulting that this person is contributing to the stereotype that I am subject to. I played by the rules, didn't lie and followed the terms & conditions of my visa. She didn't. As far as I'm concerned she shouldn't be allowed back in under any sort of visa.

The fact that she was allowed to stay for a few days to 'visit' was generous.

Harsh!  The OP's girlfriend was obviously naive but I don't think her and her boyfriend deserve to be seperated forever because she shouldn't be allowed "any sort of visa". 

Also is there really a problem with going to a gym on a casual basis if you are just a long term visitor.  Is that not allowed?  I've done it myself whilst abroad.  If it's not allowed that's ridiculous.  I don't see how it's any different from buying groceries.


Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2009, 10:35:03 AM »
Harsh!  The OP's girlfriend was obviously naive but I don't think her and her boyfriend deserve to be seperated forever because she shouldn't be allowed "any sort of visa". 


What you call naivete I call willful violation since she was made aware of the rules and broke them anyway.

And no where did I say they should be separated forever. But, the determination if she is to be granted a visa in the future is not up to me, it is at the discretion of the ECO and realistically it's anyones guess if she'll get one.


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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2009, 10:48:21 AM »
What you call naivete I call willful violation since she was made aware of the rules and broke them anyway.

It is not clear that she was made aware of the rules (and yes, ignorance is not an excuse.  My point is that the person in this case was not intending to do wrong).

WebyJ, you say that
Quote
I was specifically warned NO WORK, PAID OR UNPAID, NOR ANY VOLUNTEER WORK.
.  Not everyone is.  I certainly wasn't ever told that upon entering the UK as a visitor, the only time that work was mentioned at all was when I came to do my training, the IO just said "You can't take a job" and I said "I know, I don't intend to."  That was it, no mention of volunteer or unpaid or anything.  What the OP's gf did may have violated the letter of the law, but to call it a willful violation is unfair.   
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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2009, 10:57:41 AM »
Visas say 'no work or recourse to public funds' I seem to recall (I don't see many these days).  I guess the questions is about how clear the definition of 'work' is.  I think there could easily be seen as a difference between babysitting and getting paid, and looking after a friend's child and being given £20 as a thank you.  Sadly, the Home Office disagree, hence this problem.

As for the deception...this is a common mistake, which is why I advise NEVER to lie or even seek to mislead on this.  If he asks, tell.  A refusal on intent to return because of the relationship is 100 times better than a refusal on grounds of deception.

Vicky


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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2009, 11:30:58 AM »
May,

This is exactly why I don't think that people who stay someplace for up to 6 months CAN be true visitors, if a visitors can basically do nothing that local people do, or that they would normally do at home.  This definition is perfectly fine for the majority of people who stay for a week or two, travel within the country, stay in hotels, sightsee, etc, but for someone who stays with a friend/SO for several months, that sort of thing is next to impossible--or at least really difficult-- to achieve, as your fiance can attest!

It isn't that I don't understand the laws, it's that I don't think that it's right to have such rigid ones that apply equally to people who come for a weekend and those who stay for six months.   

I agree. In his case, as he was here for work, as a Business visitor (and everything on that aspect was perfectly legal, we made sure and counter checked innumerable times with UKBA), it was quite harsh on him not to be allowed to do anything of the things that usually relax him after work. I didn't even allow him to help out in the house or in the garden, for fear it could be constructed as voluntary work! (Although THIS was NOT harsh on him at all...  ;D)

I am happy with rigid and clear-cut laws and little space for interpretation, so everyone knows where they stand, but I wish they could accommodate a broader range of situations. I assume it is not possible to invent a new category of visas for people on long visits?  ??? I guess that would be too much mess for them to arrange that...

Hatsumono, there was not clear answer to that thread about going to the gym, and we preferred not to risk it. The rule is that as a visitor you cannot learn, otherwise you are a student and not a visitor, so at least for sure no classes. We decided to take the most strict interpretation to be on the safe side. We might have been more royalist than the King (Queen), but well... Better safe than sorry.


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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2009, 12:09:20 PM »
WebyJ, you say that .  Not everyone is.  I certainly wasn't ever told that upon entering the UK as a visitor, the only time that work was mentioned at all was when I came to do my training, the IO just said "You can't take a job" and I said "I know, I don't intend to."  That was it, no mention of volunteer or unpaid or anything.  What the OP's gf did may have violated the letter of the law, but to call it a willful violation is unfair.   

What did the Entry Stamp in your Passport Say?  All of mine said "LEAVE TO ENTER FOR SIX MONTHS: EMPLOYMENT AND RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS PROHIBITED".
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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2009, 12:16:50 PM »
I assume it is not possible to invent a new category of visas for people on long visits?
"Resident visitor"?  "Visiting Resident"?
Quote
  ??? I guess that would be too much mess for them to arrange that...
Probably  :)

Quote
The rule is that as a visitor you cannot learn, otherwise you are a student and not a visitor, so at least for sure no classes.

This must have changed recently.  The training I did in March of last year was technically a "course," but all the research I did at the time I applied indicated I didn't need a visa, since it was only for four weeks.  This was confirmed by the director of studies when I did the interview, and I presented all my documentation to the IO when I entered.  I also mentioned it in my spousal visa application.   
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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2009, 12:21:56 PM »
Quote
I am happy with rigid and clear-cut laws and little space for interpretation, so everyone knows where they stand, but I wish they could accommodate a broader range of situations.

May, that's exactly it, and I def agree with the last part of what you said. But when you start talking about 'accommodating' a variety of situations, you're talking about the opposite of 'rigid and clear-cut laws and little space for interpretation.' There needs to be some room for human judgment, otherwise we are left baffled and perplexed by the lack of common sense in immigration decisions. The problem is that I think the human judgment in these instances tends to be not very human at all.

I could understand if the OP's gf went to a computerized IO and did the whole friend/boyfriend bit, admitting to babysitting, and was refused on the grounds of 'computer says no'. But for there to be no subjective leniency in the IO as a thinking (well....), feeling human means either a) the otherwise magnanimous IO feels that they have no power to maneuver within their prescribed instructions, or b) the somewhat malevolent IO is looking for the tiniest reason to apply their refusal formulae to. I suspect it is a mixture of both, with the majority of IOs being somewhere on the spectrum.

While I do share the views of most people here to a large extent, ie that the rules are  harsh, yes, but we only empower ourselves by knowing them like the back of our hands and playing them to the t, I do disagree with internalizing these rules to the point of condemning others who break them.

I think it is a misconception to think that we are dealing with a fair system, which is only made unfair and tough for 'the rest of us' by those naughty ones who break its rules and cause a 'stereotype.' Even if there wasn't a stereotype, we would still be treated unfairly because if the only criteria for keeping people out (the admitted goal of most people who take up posts in UKBA, according to contrex) were that they either followed the rules or didn't, then Britain would be overflowing. It's easy to follow the rules, after all.

Two words: population control. And the preservation of Britain's cultural homogeneity (or whatever's left of it). How many entry refusals happen to girls who have bank balances, return tickets, and to the letter of the law fulfill all qualifications of being a visitor, but when they admit to visiting a boyfriend, they are bounced on the 'intent to return' clause? I don't think the IOs always necessarily believe the reason they are sending these girls home is true, ie intent to overstay. I believe the greater point is to stop them from being in the country long enough to form a close enough relationship with their British partner that will lead to eventual settlement.

I don't believe bounces are, for the most part, fair. I believe that the spirit of the bounce is to cut relationships off at the pass that will eventually increase the surplus (foreign) population.

And I'm not even going to get started about the pathetic reams of excuses generated by ECOs for visa refusals from non-US foreign consulates. Ask Vicky.

Despite my somewhat radical opinions which I know plenty of people probably disagree with, the point I was trying to make is that this forum exists both to share our individual opinions and to support each other, right? We all, in one way or another, face a common obstacle, whether we see it as a common challenge or a common threat, this government has power over us and our British partners that would be an out-and-out human rights violation if we were citizens, and the best way to navigate its ever-changing murky waters is to share our stories, share information and support. Not condemn people who had no way of knowing how severe their punishment would be, or who, being reasonable human beings, expected the IOs to be reasonable and understanding as well.


Diana (sorry for the length).


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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2009, 12:26:20 PM »
What did the Entry Stamp in your Passport Say?  All of mine said "LEAVE TO ENTER FOR SIX MONTHS: EMPLOYMENT AND RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS PROHIBITED".

I guess it does say that now that I look closely, but it is so blurred that you can't tell what's written unless you know what to look for.  Besides, one of the points I've been trying to make is that I doubt most people would consider voluteering or doing a favor as "employment."  In my mind, employment is a real job, with an agreed rate of pay and at least a verbal contract.  So if someone had said to me, while I was on a visitor visa "If you watch my kids for an afternoon, I'll pay you £20" then I would have thought no, I can't do that, it's work.  But if they said "Would you mind watching my kids for the afternoon?" I'm sure I would have thought, oh, no problem, it's just a favor, I'll be nice.  To my mind, the second scenario is not employment.    
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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2009, 12:26:24 PM »
Well said, Diana. :)

Historyenne- I agree. I wouldn't have thought helping out a friend for an afternoon would be called "work" (except now that I am familiar with this forum and the fact that even volunteering is considered work.) What about if you're staying with a friend and help out with cleaning? Is that work, too? If I do the dishes after dinner and make my bed in the morning, is that work?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 12:29:23 PM by Gottagettolondon »
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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2009, 12:47:32 PM »
Quote
I am happy with rigid and clear-cut laws and little space for interpretation, so everyone knows where they stand, but I wish they could accommodate a broader range of situations.

May, that's exactly it, and I def agree with the last part of what you said. But when you start talking about 'accommodating' a variety of situations, you're talking about the opposite of 'rigid and clear-cut laws and little space for interpretation.'

 :)
Sorry, bad English. That "they" was not referring to the "laws" in that sentence, as I see now it's easy to read, but to "they the immigration people, the people who make the immigration laws". I meant to say, I wish there could be a specific visa category for more specific situations, so that it is easier to understand under which category one falls, e.g. short term visitor AND long term visitor, and a separate business visa, and I'm not familiar with this, but I seem to remember also family visitors are included in the cauldron? Most confusing...


Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2009, 12:49:45 PM »
"Resident visitor"?  "Visiting Resident"?Probably  :)

Discussions have been sparked around this previously, but unfortunately it seems hard to demonstrate how someone might qualify for a visa like this.  But hey, there's always room for a brilliant idea.  It'd be nice if one could be found. 


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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2009, 01:07:30 PM »
Business visas and family visit visas are in a seperate category from tourists.


Vicky


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Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2009, 01:07:35 PM »
Yes, I think the multitude of bounces surrounding people seeking entry as visitors attests to the fact that the visitor category is insufficient in providing for all the different types of people seeking entry to the UK for purposes which are not work or study but neither are they sightseeing Big Ben.

I believe people wanting to come stay with their UK partners for a few months, just BE with them and not be married, the way citizens are allowed to do, deserves its own visa category. But then you could argue, that would dramatically increase the amount of settlement visas/in-country FLRs later on, and so of course that visa category won't be introduced.

The visa categories exist to benefit Britain, not the immigrants. You're either a highly skilled worker, a student, a tourist or person of independent means here to spend your holiday budget or trust fund interest, or you have miraculously found a way to enter in an engagement or marriage despite there being no visa for the interim between visiting tourist and married/to-be-married settler. Most times this happens to be while people are here on student visas, but again, that means that only those who can afford to pay foreign school fees are allowed to be with their partners through that route.


Diana


Re: UK Entry Refusal
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2009, 01:47:42 PM »
Diana, great post.

I can totally promise they are not trying to throttle multi-culti relationships as an ulterior motive in bouncing people.  Totally promise. 

They are trying to prevent overstays, queue jumping, and the like.  Facts are that there is a recognizable population of people out there who would like to start a new life in the UK, and once they get in, they are too insecure in their relationship (or financially strapped, or what-have-you) to follow the rules. 

Don't believe?  The archives of UKY are littered with enquiries from people desparate to start a new life here.  Just pick a random place in the archives and start reading.  And as you can see by reading their posts, they will do anything possible to get in.  And once they get in, they will do anything possible to stay.  That includes queue jumping, overstaying, working illegally, even prostitution.

The notion that American women built themselves an iron-clad stereotype of deception doesn't help the matter at all.  You can read hundreds of posts here where they talk about various ways to lie with no compunction at all, like it's a natural thing to do.  Just pick any random place in the UKY archives and start reading.

From the IO's perspective, if you had a job where people lied to you all day, sometimes you would get insulted and pop off at the cork also - maybe overreact.  That's what probably happened here.   Sadly, there's nothing to be done about it, because they are fundamentally in the right.

What can be done, on the other hand, is to keep on insisting to them that

[1] having a bf/gf in the UK does not automatically signal an intent to violate our laws (we have made lots of progress on this one);

[2] in the face of intrusive and personal questions, the American concept of privacy and intimacy allows white lies.  This is a cultural thing and also does *NOT* signal an intent to violate our laws (not much progress on this one);

[3] detention at a border point is meant to detain, not to 'teach a lesson', not to intimidate or to inflict punishment or to impose unsafe/harsh conditions (we need your HELP on this one).


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