Pledge of Allegiance

We always said it in school, but it wasn't that serious. To us it was like reciting the ABCs or counting. I don't see a problem with it, I think its good for kids to feel a sense of pride in their country. I don't think its absolutely necessary but I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with it.

I think its good for kids to feel a sense of pride in their country.

But is enforced recital of the pledge effective in instilling that pride?  That's the question. 

But is enforced recital of the pledge effective in instilling that pride?  That's the question. 

For some kids, maybe. I guess I don't really see the harm in it but that is just my opinion.

I don't think reciting the pledge is harmful to kids, I just think it's utterly pointless and a waste of time in schools.

We always said it in school, but it wasn't that serious. To us it was like reciting the ABCs or counting.

This, to my mind, is kind of at odds with

I don't see a problem with it, I think its good for kids to feel a sense of pride in their country. I don't think its absolutely necessary but I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with it.

I don't think there's much pride to be had from reciting the alphabet. Either it's just a meaningless something recited by rote or it's daily meaningful affirmation of patriotism. Can't be both.

And, as someone said earlier, I'm not sure you could convince me that many elementary school students fully comprehend words like "allegiance" and "republic." If we want them to feel a sense of pride, why not have them recite something they have an even-money chance of understanding?

BTW, "under God" was added at the height of Russkies paranoia. The latter has gone the way of the dodo, and I think the former should too.

BTW, "under God" was added at the height of Russkies paranoia. The latter has gone the way of the dodo, and I think the former should too.

I agree completely that it should be done away with, but since we're now at the height of middle eastern paranoia, I don't see that happening any time soon.

Does paranoia make kids more proud of their country?? 

I agree completely that it should be done away with, but since we're now at the height of middle eastern paranoia, I don't see that happening any time soon.

Does paranoia make kids more proud of their country?? 

First they came for my "under God" and I said nothing. Then they came for my "Merry Christmas!" and still I said nothing. And then they stole my wallet!

I don't think there's much pride to be had from reciting the alphabet. Either it's just a meaningless something recited by rote or it's daily meaningful affirmation of patriotism. Can't be both.

I completely agree.

If we want them to feel a sense of pride, why not have them recite something they have an even-money chance of understanding?

Or teach them the country's history, and let their pride in it develop naturally.  Patriotism has to be more than just waving the flag around and yelling about how America is the best, or reciting the pledge the most often and in the loudest voice.  How about bringing back Civics classes?  That would go a lot farther towards teaching children pride in their country than making them drone a pledge that they never really think about much less understand the meaning of.  

How about bringing back Civics classes?  That would go a lot farther towards teaching children pride in their country than making them drone a pledge that they never really think about much less understand the meaning of.  

They don't have Civics class anymore?? 

They don't have Civics class anymore?? 

I never had it.  I don't think it existed at any of my schools. 

This, to my mind, is kind of at odds with

I don't think there's much pride to be had from reciting the alphabet. Either it's just a meaningless something recited by rote or it's daily meaningful affirmation of patriotism. Can't be both.

And, as someone said earlier, I'm not sure you could convince me that many elementary school students fully comprehend words like "allegiance" and "republic." If we want them to feel a sense of pride, why not have them recite something they have an even-money chance of understanding?

BTW, "under God" was added at the height of Russkies paranoia. The latter has gone the way of the dodo, and I think the former should too.

Wow, I really never said that kids get any pride from reciting the alphabet. What I meant was that we learned to recite the pledge just like we learned to recite our ABCs. It wasn't an indoctrination or something we were forced to do against our will it was just another part of class. Learning our ABCs helped us to spell and learning the pledge helped us to understand the principles our country was founded on.The only similarity was that I felt they were both tools for learning.

Where I went to school we took the time to learn what those words meant. I understand this was just my personal experience but I highly doubt mine was the only elementary school where the teachers actually taught their kids the meaning of the words in the pledge.

I suppose it's like saying you can't get much religion from reciting the Lord's Prayer every week. Speaking with my atheist hat on -- no, if you don't believe to begin with. Probably yes, if you do.

But is enforced recital of the pledge effective in instilling that pride?  That's the question. 

It is illegal to force kids to say the pledge.  You didn't need to opt kids out of it in my school.  But if your kids are little and they don't say it I can see the teacher mentioning it. 

Our school said it every morning regardless of grade.  I stopped reciting it in 10th or 11th grade, but I was required to stand.  Part of it was teenage rebellion, I won't lie, but there was more than that.

I do think the Pledge is harmful.  Yeah, I think the under God thing is offensive, even though I am not an atheist or agnostic, but I would think that the Pledge is inappropriate even if that wasn't added to it.

Right around the time I stopped reciting the pledge, I read Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun.  What profoundly effected me wasn't the disturbing setting and plot of the book, but some of his preachy ramblings about war, symbols and how people get tricked into war without questioning.  I don't think that all war is unjustified (neither did Trumbo as he stopped allowing his book to be published during WWII because it was being used by pro-fascist groups to rally against US involvement), but I think things like the pledge help blur the issue enough to make it more difficult for people to decide without relying upon "my country right or wrong".  It also helps lead to the false dilemmas so artfully used to help characterise dissent to the second Iraq war (and the first one when you get down to it) as "unpatriotic".  It's much easier to demonise someone who objects to a policy than to even listen to them.

When you recite the Pledge, you are allying with a symbol, not what that symbol is meant to represent.  You are not promising to try to achieve liberty and justice for all, but to assert that this magical indivisible nation already has it.  You are firmly stating that you will sacrifice ideals for this symbol ("which so many shed their blood for" which I was told when someone confronted me about my pledge abstention).

Even as "good Americans" we should realise that there are more important things than even loyalty to our country.  I lied every school morning from K-10 because I really didn't believe or understand what I was saying.  It isn't that important, especially looking back, but I remember it being a huge bone of contention with me during my last few years of school.

Re-reading this, it seems a bit teen angsty, but I still believe most of it.  There are so many things that could be recited or discussed that would be more productive for American students or the US as a whole.  It probably will seem a bit OTT for some of you, but it was a huge thing for me as a teen, and I took a lot of crap (small town) about it.

I remember learning it in elementary school, and in middle, we used to try to say it as fast as we could and would have "races"...we never took it seriously at all, to be honest.

In high school, someone would recite it over the PA every day, but we were usually wandering the halls and on our way to class and no one really paid attention to it.