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Topic: Grammar question.  (Read 3331 times)

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Grammar question.
« on: April 02, 2009, 02:22:00 PM »
Which is correct?

"There are 50 ways to leave your lover. None of them works" or " There are 50 ways to leave your lover. None of them work."
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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2009, 02:35:46 PM »
Works. A good hint is to replace "none" with "not one" or "one" and see how it sounds.


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2009, 02:36:47 PM »
I suspect most grammar people will tell you that "none" can only be singular, because it comes from "not one," but the fact is that it can be singular or plural.  In your case, because you are talking about multiple ways to leave your lover, you should use the plural form.  If "All of them work" then "None of them work."

Here are some references:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-non2.htm

http://www.grammarmudge.cityslide.com/articles/article/1026513/9903.htm

http://www.englishrules.com/writing/2005/none-singular-or-plural.php

ETA: Here's the Oxford English Dictionary on the subject
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 02:40:57 PM by historyenne »
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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 03:00:03 PM »
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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 03:01:30 PM »
i reckon it's 'work'.


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2009, 03:04:57 PM »
i reckon it's 'work'.

It's 'works'. Substitute 'not one' for 'none' and you'll see.  :)
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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2009, 03:06:44 PM »
It's 'works'. Substitute 'not one' for 'none' and you'll see.  :)

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

Quote
none

  • pronoun 1 not any. 2 no one.

  • adverb (none the) with comparative by no amount: none the wiser.

  — USAGE Some traditionalists maintain that none can only take a singular verb (as in none of them is coming tonight rather than none of them are coming tonight). However, none is descended from Old English nan meaning ‘not one’, and has been used for around a thousand years with either a singular or a plural verb, depending on the context and the emphasis needed.

  — ORIGIN Old English.
On s'envolera du même quai
Les yeux dans les mêmes reflets,
Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

Je t'aimais, je t'aime, et je t'aimerai.

--Francis Cabrel


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 03:09:44 PM »
From the Oxford English Dictionary:


Then I'm a traditionalist.  ;)

Seriously, while some people might acknowledge that the plural is OK, you're safer using the singular as it's the most commonly accepted answer.
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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2009, 03:11:11 PM »
From the Oxford English Dictionary:




Wow, I'm glad I asked. I saw "None of them works" in a Slate headline when referring to multiple cures for autism, and I wanted to know if it was correct usage cause it sounded off to me. :)

And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say
"Thank you for being a friend!"


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 03:14:15 PM »
It's not a traditionalists vs non-traditionalists argument.  The word has been used as both singular and plural since the middle ages, so there's tradition on both sides.  I also disagree that it's "the most commonly accepted answer."  If you google "none singular or plural" two of the first three hits advocate the plural usage of "none."  It's a lively debate.  

On s'envolera du même quai
Les yeux dans les mêmes reflets,
Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

Je t'aimais, je t'aime, et je t'aimerai.

--Francis Cabrel


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 03:16:43 PM »
Does this mean that neither usage is incorrect? Are incorrect? Is incorrects? ;)

So confuzzled. ;D
And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say
"Thank you for being a friend!"


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 03:22:48 PM »
Both seem fine.

I prefer the traditional...as the sentence would have been "(Not one) of them (does) work"

Vicky


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 04:03:00 PM »
Wow, I'm glad I asked. I saw "None of them works" in a Slate headline when referring to multiple cures for autism, and I wanted to know if it was correct usage cause it sounded off to me. :)

No, it's correct!  :)

It's not a traditionalists vs non-traditionalists argument.

But your link says: "Some traditionalists maintain that none can only take a singular verb." That's what I was referring to when I said I must be a traditionalist. I feel VERY strongly that none should always take the singular verb.
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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 04:08:46 PM »

But your link says: "Some traditionalists maintain that none can only take a singular verb." That's what I was referring to when I said I must be a traditionalist. I feel VERY strongly that none should always take the singular verb.

You do NOT want to get in chary's way when she feels VERY strongly about grammar!  :-*


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Re: Grammar question.
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 04:35:30 PM »
But if you read closely, you'll see that there's an equally long tradition of "none" being plural as well as singular.  This is a case where people have established a "rule" without foundation.

I am as much of a grammar fiend as anyone (I teach English and French), and while I myself would tend to use the singular with "none," my point is that this is not a carved-in-stone rule, and that there are actually cases where the plural verb sounds better.  Chary is welcome to defend whatever side she wants, but I feel strongly about grammar as well, and I choose to follow the Oxford dictionary. 
On s'envolera du même quai
Les yeux dans les mêmes reflets,
Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

Je t'aimais, je t'aime, et je t'aimerai.

--Francis Cabrel


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