Signs, Serendipity and Kismet

Human beings are pattern finding machines. It's what we do. It's what we are. We look up in the night sky with the trillions of random stars and we see gods and bunnies and farm equipment.

It isn't there. We put it there. If you didn't take the road you took, you'd've taken another one and thought it meant something, too.

I know logic and reason dictate there being no such thing as fate, destiny or signs, but I believe in it nonetheless. I have faith in my intuition and the universe, and feel that if I pay attention to those patterns, I'll ultimately head in a direction that's to my benefit. No offense intended to Stoatula or MaryKate, but I'm not looking to be reasoned out of this. Just to share stories of these uncanny coincidences that makes one question, as per my original request.

Like... that I'd been considering an MBA program and even took the GMAT and very nearly applied to a few places, but never found the right fit. Then after I met DBF and looked at his university, I found the program that was exactly what I'd been searching for the entire time, somewhere I would have never considered looking.

I know logic and reason dictate there being no such thing as fate, destiny or signs.

Yeah, but what do they know, right?

And as has been written by mods and others more than once: you ask for opinions, you're gonna get a sample of ones you disagree with. Including that thinking that one can somehow control the uncontrollable is in reality nothing but a human brain looking to make a pattern out of chance and dumb luck.

I know logic and reason dictate there being no such thing as fate, destiny or signs, but I believe in it nonetheless. I have faith in my intuition and the universe, and feel that if I pay attention to those patterns, I'll ultimately head in a direction that's to my benefit. No offense intended to Stoatula or MaryKate, but I'm not looking to be reasoned out of this. Just to share stories of these uncanny coincidences that makes one question, as per my original request.

Like... that I'd been considering an MBA program and even took the GMAT and very nearly applied to a few places, but never found the right fit. Then after I met DBF and looked at his university, I found the program that was exactly what I'd been searching for the entire time, somewhere I would have never considered looking.

I think that's great! And of course you are destined to come live closer to me! 

I love to think of the little decisions that lead you to the present moment and how differently things might have turned out. I can trace back exactly what lead me to DH, too. If I hadn't have chosen to go for my masters, or had chosen a different program or university than the one I chose, or had taken a different class that semester, or had found something else to do rather than take it upon myself to research something for the class, or had I not stopped to chat with some people online who passed me a link, or had I not chosen to follow that link, then everything in my life would be different today. It was so strange that he and I found each other that way that we still marvel at how it all happened. 

I think everyone here should read this book -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Schr%C3%B6dinger's_Cat

It explains everything.



Vicky

I think everyone here should read this book -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Schr%C3%B6dinger's_Cat

It explains everything.



Vicky

That looks a bit complicated for me... I'm a right-brain kind of girl.  But is it basically stating that if you change only one variable you can cause a whole different set of events?

I think, too, that it is important to open yourself up to the possibilities of things. It would also have been easy for those of us in trans-Atlantic relationships to say to ourselves "This isn't going to go anywhere, this guy/girl is too far away to be a potential partner." But because we didn't say that, and we believed that anything might be possible, here we are today!

I think everyone here should read this book -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Schr%C3%B6dinger's_Cat

It explains everything.



Vicky

I like quantum physics and that book looks really interesting, but people aren't particles and in this case I'm with sheateawholepie.  I know that the pattern of events that I perceive as fate is just a pattern of events, and if I had never met my husband I would likely have met and fallen in love with someone else.  If I hadn't read a certain book when I was 12 that made me decide to study French instead of Spanish--a decision which has been shaping my life ever since--then something else would have happened to lead me down a different path, and I might have ended up just as happy, or happier.  I know that, but I don't care.  Humans assign meaning to the meaningless, we've been doing it for millenia.  It's what separates us from the rest of the apes.  And I intend to continue believing that DH and I are meant to be together, regardless of any sound, logical evidence to the contrary.  So there         
 

I like quantum physics and that book looks really interesting, but people aren't particles and in this case I'm with sheateawholepie.  I know that the pattern of events that I perceive as fate is just a pattern of events, and if I had never met my husband I would likely have met and fallen in love with someone else.  If I hadn't read a certain book when I was 12 that made me decide to study French instead of Spanish--a decision which has been shaping my life ever since--then something else would have happened to lead me down a different path, and I might have ended up just as happy, or happier.  I know that, but I don't care.  Humans assign meaning to the meaningless, we've been doing it for millenia.  It's what separates us from the rest of the apes.  And I intend to continue believing that DH and I are meant to be together, regardless of any sound, logical evidence to the contrary.  So there         
 

Lovely post, historyenne.

I like quantum physics and that book looks really interesting, but people aren't particles and in this case I'm with sheateawholepie.  I know that the pattern of events that I perceive as fate is just a pattern of events, and if I had never met my husband I would likely have met and fallen in love with someone else.  If I hadn't read a certain book when I was 12 that made me decide to study French instead of Spanish--a decision which has been shaping my life ever since--then something else would have happened to lead me down a different path, and I might have ended up just as happy, or happier.  I know that, but I don't care.  Humans assign meaning to the meaningless, we've been doing it for millenia.  It's what separates us from the rest of the apes.  And I intend to continue believing that DH and I are meant to be together, regardless of any sound, logical evidence to the contrary.  So there         
 

You go, girl!  I feel the same way (except for liking physics, that is... ) 

But people *are* particles, that is the point, and there are potentially billions of different eventualities which could happen, or indeed billions of different realites happening now, and our actions determine which reality we are currently in.

It is a book for non-physicists. 

Vicky

But people *are* particles, that is the point, and there are potentially billions of different eventualities which could happen, or indeed billions of different realites happening now, and our actions determine which reality we are currently in.

It is a book for non-physicists. 

Vicky

Yes, physically we are all particles, as are tables, chairs, coffee, my television.... But as historyenne pointed out.. there's more to us than that. We have souls or spirits or awareness or however you like to call it that sets us apart from other sets of particles. It isn't something that can be explained really. We are all essentially the same set of particles making up the human body (with small differences such as hair, height, etc...) but why are we so different? And what makes us choose the way we do? And why are we attracted to certain people and not to others?

Yes, physically we are all particles, as are tables, chairs, coffee, my television.... But as historyenne pointed out.. there's more to us than that. We have souls or spirits or awareness or however you like to call it that sets us apart from other sets of particles. It isn't something that can be explained really. We are all essentially the same set of particles making up the human body (with small differences such as hair, height, etc...) but why are we so different? And what makes us choose the way we do? And why are we attracted to certain people and not to others?

 

Are you actually asking? That is what I find so funny about your post: you clearly think all these questions are rhetorical, or at least don't have answers grounded in science. But these are not rhetorical questions, and science has done quite a bit to answer them.

Why we're so different, what makes us choose the way we do? Why we're attracted to certain people and not to others are questions that have a lot of really interesting answers that are not really all that mystical.

You want to believe in fate? Sure, why not. Faith is faith -- it doesn't matter what the object is. But if you want to try to convince people (or yourself) that fate or soul, or some kind of mystical aspect of man is the only thing that answers questions you seem to be asking..well..you need to do more research. Or you can stop trying to justify your beliefs or rationalize them and just you know..get on with believing them.

 

Are you actually asking? That is what I find so funny about your post: you clearly think all these questions are rhetorical, or at least don't have answers grounded in science. But these are not rhetorical questions, and science has done quite a bit to answer them.

Why we're so different, what makes us choose the way we do? Why we're attracted to certain people and not to others are questions that have a lot of really interesting answers that are not really all that mystical.

You want to believe in fate? Sure, why not. Faith is faith -- it doesn't matter what the object is. But if you want to try to convince people (or yourself) that fate or soul, or some kind of mystical aspect of man is the only thing that answers questions you seem to be asking..well..you need to do more research. Or you can stop trying to justify your beliefs or rationalize them and just you know..get on with believing them.

Well, I was contributing to the thread... it's a discussion, so I felt like putting in my two cents. Vicky's response prompted me to respond. I have always believed in my "gut" and it has led me to where I am (and even some poor decisions when I decided to not follow it). I don't need to justify it to myself, since as you said, clearly I already believe in it! But I kind of thought the point of responding in a thread was to have an intelligent discussion?

Yep, but I am suggesting that looking at the quantum aspect surrounding our life choices, specifically the experiment involving Schrodinger's cat, puts a different perspective.  The point of us being "more than just particles" isn't relevant, because from a physical point of view that is exactly what we are.

I don't believe in 'fate'.  I believe in God and I believe in science.  I don't think God brought Dan and I together, but that He created both of us and the rest of it was just something that happened. I controlled aspects of us meeting, and he controlled some, and isn't that nice. 

I have followed my 'gut'.  We always do to an extent.  And sometimes doing so has been the wrong thing to do.  I'd love to know the stats on 'gut instincts'.

Vicky

Well, I was contributing to the thread... it's a discussion, so I felt like putting in my two cents. Vicky's response prompted me to respond. I have always believed in my "gut" and it has led me to where I am (and even some poor decisions when I decided to not follow it). I don't need to justify it to myself, since as you said, clearly I already believe in it! But I kind of thought the point of responding in a thread was to have an intelligent discussion?

I appreciate the fact that I wrote like three paragraphs and you adressed one sentence of that. OK -- you wanted to take issue with me wondering why you felt the need to justify your beliefs. But if you weren't justifying, what exactly were you doing? Or is it just the word "justifying" that you feel has negative connotations and thus it got your heckles up? Fine. I substitute that with "explain" and that will not change the meaning of my question by much.

I really would like to read your answers to the rest of the stuff I raised cause it really did sound like you seriously thought the questions you were asking (Why we're different, why we like some things or people and not others) are some kind of rhetorical, unexplainable mysteries, or that had answers only outside the rational realm.

Honestly, I am absolutely amazed and blown away by the human brain and one of the things that I find most fascinating is our ability to live with internal cognitive disonance (sp?) and not have our lives completely implode. I mean, mine, historyenne's and Jewelz's (I assume, J, please correct me if I am overstepping) beliefs are a very good example of that: everything I know about the world contradicts what I believe in. Everything i understand about science and reason contradicts the existence of fate, but I still think there is such thing. Oh well. I still believe it and life goes on.

It's the people who try to twist or deny reality to avoid having to live with the contradictions that kinda throw me. I understand (and engage in) the belief in the irrational. I just don't understand the need to reconcile reality with it.

"Humans are not particles!" Well, as Vicky said above..they are actually. And that we like who we like and we do as we do because our brains are shaped by genetics and experiences and neurons fire and so on. Science has not made a lot of headway in showing the existence of a soul, as a matter of fact, pretty much everything science has done has probably shown that there ain't no such animal. I still believe it exists. Not because I think the scientists are wrong, but because it doesn't matter to me if they are. Why is it important to you?

...[C]onsistency is a hobgoblin of little minds.

Man has that quote saved my butt many times in moral, ethical and political debates.

I said humans aren't particles, I probably should have said humans are more than just particles.  Mort talks about the soul, I prefer to call it consciousness*.  IMO, it's basically the same beast under either name, but for me "consciousness" has richer implications.  It means that we are aware of the world around us, aware of our place in it, aware of our collective past and concerned for our future.  It means that we look for patterns in chaos, we try to explain the inexplicable, we look for meaning for our existence and justifications for our actions.  No other animal does this.  Chimps and gorillas and other higher apes do some of the same things (I can't remember the exact data, but I remember reading that chimps will attach emotionally to dolls and other inanimate objects, to the point of associating meaning to them) but humans are the only species that have not only curiosity but awareness of all the things that exist in the world to be curious about.  We're the only ones who ask "Why?" 

So even though the same laws that govern quantum particles may also govern us, unlike the particles, we want those laws to have a point.  We want there to be a reason.  Science doesn't offer those kinds of reasons, it just tells us how things are.  I am a great devotee of science, and do my best to keep abreast of all its developments, but my human consciousness still wants more. 

I love whatifs, personally, and am always wondering how things might have been different if I'd made different choices.  I like to try to pinpoint crucial points in my life and think "If I had done this instead of that, what would have resulted?"  I don't believe that we are on preordained paths, but I like to think about the improbability of some things turning out the way they did.  I like to marvel at the odds.  That's what I mean by fate, that I did happen to make certain choices, which led to certain results.  It is supremely illogical and the more I think about it the more it breaks down.  But that's my way of imposing order on my random life. 

*The result of reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman, some of the best books dealing with theology and science ever written, despite being intended for children.