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Topic: BCI: UK-Y Commons  (Read 3679 times)

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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 12:58:09 AM »
I have written to each of the committee members.  I got delivery failure notice to Steve McCabes email though.  I didn't write to Phil Woolas.  I couldn't think of a way to to tell him politely to  kiss my @$$!!
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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 11:00:52 PM »
Important consideration (which I must admit I did not realise and was made of the following on another forum):

The Committe stage in the Commons is very different to the Lords.  Unlike the Lords where the whole house can turn up at a Grand Committe, at the Commons normally only those nominated to a committee can attend it as Members. In other words, in the Commons the committee stage is a 'members only' event.

This is significant as a very limited number of people can vote for or against an amendment. The BCI committe is 18 people (although the chairman cannot vote - so it's actually only 17)


Sir Nicholas Winterton (Con) (Chairman): wintertonn@parliament.uk
Miss Anne Begg (Lab) (Chairmen): begga@parliament.uk
Mr David Anderson (Lab): andersonda@parliament.uk
Mr Crispin Blunt (Con): crispinbluntmp@parliament.uk
Tom Brake (LibDem): braket@parliament.uk
Mr Simon Burns (Con): burnss@parliament.uk
Damian Green (Con, Shadow Minister for Immigration): greend@parliament.uk
Andrew Gwynne (Lab): gwynnea@parliament.uk
Mr David Hamilton (Lab): hamiltonda@parliament.uk
Mr Adam Holloway (Con): hollowaya@parliament.uk
Steve McCabe (Lab): mccabes@parliament.uk
Kerry McCarthy (Lab): mccarthyk@parliament.uk
Siobhain McDonagh (Lab): mcdonaghs@parliament.uk
Gwyn Prosser (Lab): prosserg@parliament.uk
Paul Rowen (LibDem): rowenp@parliament.uk
Mr Charles Walker (Con): walkerc@parliament.uk
Phil Wilson (Lab): wilsonphil@parliament.uk
Phil Woolas (DON"T CONTACT!)

If you haven't written or emailed anyone yet - the above are the people to contact NOW. The BCI outcome in the commons rests with the above people.


Here is a template letter you can use:

Quote
Dear Mr. Green,

First, having followed this Bill closely since it was first introduced in the Lords, I would like to thank you for the valuable contribution you made at 2nd Reading.

I write specifically regarding the Government’s relentless intention to apply the changes of Part 2 retrospectively to migrants already part-way through the current path to citizenship. Despite Mr. Woolas’ closing remarks, nothing has changed: The Government still fully intends to apply the changes retrospectively. That is why Mr. Phil Woolas has tabled amendment 30 which seeks to remove Clause 39 from the Bill.

Retrospection

First – and for clarity - the ONLY migrants that will suffer from retrospective changes are those holding qualifying Limited Leave to Remain.

Those holding Indefinite Leave to Remain have never had anything to worry about this Bill. This is because the Bill itself provides that those with Indefinite Leave to Remain will be automatically treated as having the new “permanent residence leave”  (Clause 50(3) page 42, line 34).  This position has also been confirmed by Lord Brett on the floor of the House of Lords as well as in written correspondence to Lord Avebury.

However, without Clause 39, Part 2 WILL be applied retrospectively to holders of Limited Leave to Remain. This ignores good practice, two High court judgements (HSMP), and a letter issued by the Home Office to migrants issued with Limited Leave to Remain which categorically states that they are permitted to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain at the end of their current leave.

Baroness Hanham, and Lord Avebury made very clear at the other place that those with Limited Leave to Remain should not be caught up by the changes – hence an amendment was accepted which is now Clause 39 in the Bill.

Phil Woolas: A Meaningless Assurance and ‘Twisting’ the HSMP High Court Ruling?

Do not be fooled by Mr. Woolas’ closing remarks:

“I have reassured the House that these proposals do not in any way retrospectively affect those with ILR. The hon. Member for Ashford fairly raised a point relating to the highly skilled migrants scheme; I concede that point, the court has ruled, and we will of course obey.”

This is a meaningless assurance for three reasons: 

1.   The two Home Office High Court defeats did NOT concern retrospective changes to migrants holding Indefinite Leave to Remain as Mr. Woolas would have you believe.  Rather, the HSMP High Court rulings concerned migrants with Limited Leave to Remain. 
2.   The Home Office has to obey anyway – the Court Order cannot be ignored.
3.   Clause 39 seeks to those protect migrants with limited leave to remain who are on a path which leads to citizenship. These include family members (spouse/civil partner), economic migrants (HSMP, Work Permit holder etc) and UK Ancestry paths. For clarity the clause is not limited to only HSMP.

Astonishingly, it seems that the Home Office is up to its old tricks again. It has made clear it intends to make changes and apply them to people already part-way through the system.

One point that may have been overlooked is the High Court found on both Home Office defeats that retrospective changes to the immigration rules are UNLAWFUL.

It is of paramount importance that Clause 39 remains as part of the Bill.  This is even more important as Jacqui Smith dropped the new bombshell of the upcoming points-based system for Citizenship.  Without Clause 39, Part 2 will be applied retrospectively. This would be unfair, unjust and above all unlawful.

I cannot urge you strongly enough not to agree to Phil Woolas’ amendment 30 which seeks to remove Clause 39 from the Bill.

Bottom Line: Clause 39 MUST remain part of the Bill - Oppose Amendment 30.

With the Committee stages approaching quickly, I hope that this letter will prove beneficial and my concerns taken onboard.

Yours Sincerely,


Don't forget to include the Clause 39 briefing which is found at:

http://www.londonelegance.com/transpondia/response/Clause39Briefing.pdf
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:04:14 PM by Jalexa »


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 01:29:09 PM »
Oh this just makes me so angry. I wrote to my MP who hasn't even bothered to respond (Labour), so I'll sure as hell be writing to Jalexa's list above, I'll also get my wife to write.

Can I just ask a point for a point of clarity, if clause 39 is removed, does that mean that the Bill will have to go back to the house of lords?
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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2009, 01:46:59 PM »
Oh this just makes me so angry. I wrote to my MP who hasn't even bothered to respond (Labour), so I'll sure as hell be writing to Jalexa's list above, I'll also get my wife to write.

Can I just ask a point for a point of clarity, if clause 39 is removed, does that mean that the Bill will have to go back to the house of lords?

Yes! Any amendments whatsoever will mean the Bill has to goe back to the Lords. So if Clause 39 is removed, the Lords can put in back in if they wish.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:49:26 PM by Jalexa »


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2009, 02:44:36 PM »
Yes! Any amendments whatsoever will mean the Bill has to goe back to the Lords. So if Clause 39 is removed, the Lords can put in back in if they wish.

Well that could be good news then, right? If the Bill keeps getting passed back and forth, then there is a chance that it won't be done and dusted before a general election is called, in which case, the whole thing would be scrapped. Or have I misread the situation?

Don't get me wrong, I'll still be writing to the MPs as they need to be aware of how this bill royally screws over present legal migrants, but I'd rather the whole thing be scrapped altogether.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 05:53:47 PM by casualwalks »
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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2009, 02:57:50 PM »
Quote
Don't get me wrong, I'll still be writing to the MPs as they need to be aware of how this bill royally screws over present legal migrants, but I'd rather the whole thing be scrapped altogether.

I totally agree and just wonder how does a bill get scrapped? I mean with so many MP's really not supporting this bill, the fact it isn't clearly thought through, it has diminished in size considerably and there isn't clear information on how volunteering and now the points based side is actually going to work or be implemented, how can it just keep trudging along? Why can't it just stop where its at and be reintroduced when it has been thought through properly and provisions are clearly explained and laid out?

For a bill that's supposed to be this really big deal it is an honestly poor piece of legislation. I just don't get why someone can't stop the whole thing and get it right instead of a handful of people headed by Phil Woolas keeping it alive when it should really die and make room for something better. To be honest the current system seems to doing just fine with maybe some tweaks. It just boggles me unless I, too, am missing something.


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2009, 05:48:54 PM »
There is a limit to the number of times the Lords can reject a Bill.  If they keep doing so, then the Parliament Act will be invoked.

Labour have undermined the committee proccesses each years since they took power.  This is why legislation is so bad, why Bills are poorly drafted.  There is no scrutiny.  It's pathetic.

Vicky



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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2009, 08:59:57 PM »
Well that's not surprising from a Labour govt, sad really. They just don't seem to think things through and then get pinned with it later only to say 'oops'. Maybe now that things have changed these shoddy bills will be binned and presented more thoroughly. These laws affect people in a very important and intimate way. Not considering their consequences is irresponsible for those who are ELECTED to office. It'll be interesting to see how the latest knock on Labour's power will have an affect on political matters.


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2009, 09:40:44 PM »
You need to remember that we currently have a Prime Minister who was not elected to power.

The last three immigration Bills have been disasters, with completely unworkable measures.  This will be the same.

Vicky


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2009, 09:45:58 PM »
You need to remember that we currently have a Prime Minister who was not elected to power.

Irrelevant.  He was elected to represent his constituency and therefore was elected.  The British public do not elect prime ministers to power.  The party chooses who will lead them and it just so happens to be Gordon Browne.
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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2009, 09:57:45 PM »
I think it is pretty relevant, actually.  The fact that he has not led his party to a General Election victory means that he has no democratic mandate.  As he was appointed to the leadership of the Labour Party uncontested, he doesn't even have a mandate within his own party!

Vicky


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2009, 10:44:23 PM »
The last three immigration Bills have been disasters, with completely unworkable measures.  This will be the same.

When you say unworkable measures do you mean they couldn't be implemented even though they passed? Whatever happened to the measures that were in the bills? Or are we seeing the effects of those bills currently? I'm just wondering if those bills were passed but couldn't be implemented, therefore, were sidelined, hence the need for further immigration bills to fix the problems of the previous versions.

If a bill is unworkable and can't be implemented what happens? I can see the volunteering and points system going down this road. The volunteer sector will not be able to handle the influx of immigrants wanting to volunteer and the bureaucracy/paperwork will be a nightmare. The points system just hasn't even been thought out at all so there isn't a way to implement it correctly at this point in time.


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2009, 10:51:45 PM »
When you say unworkable measures do you mean they couldn't be implemented even though they passed? Whatever happened to the measures that were in the bills? Or are we seeing the effects of those bills currently? I'm just wondering if those bills were passed but couldn't be implemented, therefore, were sidelined, hence the need for further immigration bills to fix the problems of the previous versions.

Absolutely right with everything you are asking/stating.  A Bill is passed without proper scrutiny, someone realises that measures can't work, so they need a new Bill to fix the bad laws.  And this continues ad infinitum.

If a bill is unworkable and can't be implemented what happens? I can see the volunteering and points system going down this road. The volunteer sector will not be able to handle the influx of immigrants wanting to volunteer and the bureaucracy/paperwork will be a nightmare. The points system just hasn't even been thought out at all so there isn't a way to implement it correctly at this point in time.

Well, once they realise that things aren't working, then we will be looking at another new Bill!

Vicky


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2009, 11:00:41 PM »
Oh right! *laughing* Ok well at least we know what's in store...just a never ending cycle of bills that don't work. So its a probable outcome that this bill and all of its nonsense will pass but be found to be unworkable as a result of not being thought through properly. I just can't see it working vs what's already in place currently. I can't help but laugh at it all  ;D


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Re: BCI: UK-Y Commons
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2009, 05:35:49 PM »
To those who question the power of the pen, I just recieved an email from the researcher of Tom Brake MP (who is a member of the BCI committe):


Tom Brake MP will vote in order to keep the clause 39 in the bill.

 


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