US Adverts on National Healthcare

The American people need to be informed in detail and allowed meaningful debate on this topic. It's a huge overhaul and should not be put together hastily with the details emerging AFTER it's signed in as law.

What's going on in these ads and right wing propaganda against healthcare reform is not informative and does not encourage meaningful debate.  Nor is painting every healthcare proposal that includes nationalised insurance like the UK informative.  You know that the NHS is a totally different animal than government run insurance, right?  And Canada isn't the only example of that type of system, right?

Is anyone in Congress actually pushing for government run healthcare?  If not, discussions of the NHS are really irrelevant.

The American people need to be informed in detail and allowed meaningful debate on this topic.

When does this ever happen?  We're never informed in detail, we just get biased ads from special interest groups that strike fear into whatever demographic they're trying to stir to action, leading to utterly pointless "debate" consisting of everyone trying to shout louder than everyone else.

Take any subject in the past 15 to 20 years and tell me where the rational informed debate was.  Clinton administration scandals?  No.  Gays in the military?  No.  Abortion?  No.  How to combat terrorism?  No.  Iraq war?  No.  2000 election?  No.  2004 election?  No.  George W. Bush administration?  No.  2008 election?  No. 

All of it's just lies and shouting, so whatever winds up happening with health care reform, it won't be the result of a well-informed electorate calmly debating the various issues and coming to a consensus that everyone can agree with.

As we've already seen with the stupid "death panel" issue, whoever scares the largest number of people first will take command of how the entire debate gets played out.

I work in a rehabilitation hospital btw, and I know a lot about how the system works for elective surgery. It's very fair to say that with good insurance a person can get elective surgery ASAP. Whether they can afford their co-pays or loss of income due to time off work is another discussion, but as far as availability, it's there.

But you can get elective surgery in the UK right away as well if you have the money or extra insurance as well. 

One of the problems of arguing that you know more about a situation is that not everyone working in your field (or even with more training and experience) will agree with you.

http://www.pnhp.org/  If we're taking just arguments from authority, wouldn't these doctors know better than you, JW66?  Of course, there are physicians who probably want to keep things as they are as well.  So who do we believe?  This is the problem with arguing from authority.

One of the problems of arguing that you know more about a situation is that not everyone working in your field (or even with more training and experience) will agree with you.

http://www.pnhp.org/  If we're taking just arguments from authority, wouldn't these doctors know better than you, JW66?  Of course, there are physicians who probably want to keep things as they are as well.  So who do we believe?  This is the problem with arguing from authority.

The bill being proposed is a botch job and people do not trust that this is being done right. There are legitimate reasons for this, not JUST scare ads on cable news. I DO want healthcare reform, btw, just not done haphazardly and quickly.

The bill being proposed is a botch job and people do not trust that this is being done right. There are legitimate reasons for this, not JUST scare ads on cable news. I DO want healthcare reform, btw, just not done haphazardly and quickly.

http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=55373.msg801772#msg801772

So what does distorting the realities of the NHS have to do with the proposals in the US, which are not even suggesting a system similar to the system we have in the UK?

http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=55373.msg801772#msg801772
So what does distorting the realities of the NHS have to do with the proposals in the US, which are not even suggesting a system similar to the system we have in the UK?

Legs, the problem is trust. People do not trust this administration to construct a valid and thoughtful bill, and trust it less with how it will be run once it's in place. Without the trust of the people, successfully changing something as epic and personal as healthcare will be a very tough sell, which is exactly what is happening. Americans know that any government run system is run inefficiently, and that goes for health programs (medicare, medicaid, VA, Indian Health) as well. Had this administration really wanted to do this right, it would not have tried to ram this bill down our throats and then criticize the American peoples' legitimate concerns about it. There was no reason to rush this through by the end of the summer when we have so many other pressing concerns right now. If reform fails, this administration will only have itself to blame, not ads about the NHS.

Btw, what ads have you seen being run here about the NHS, and what is false about them? Personally, I haven't seen one here in Californina so I'm just curious now as to what these ads say and what is being distorted. Is it the statistics being shown or personal stories? 
 

 

Legs, the problem is trust. People do not trust this administration to construct a valid and thoughtful bill, and trust it less with how it will be run once it's in place. Without the trust of the people, successfully changing something as epic and personal as healthcare will be a very tough sell, which is exactly what is happening. Americans know that any government run system is run inefficiently, and that goes for health programs (medicare, medicaid, VA, Indian Health) as well. Had this administration really wanted to do this right, it would not have tried to ram this bill down our throats and then criticize the American peoples' legitimate concerns about it. There was no reason to rush this through by the end of the summer when we have so many other pressing concerns right now. If reform fails, this administration will only have itself to blame, not ads about the NHS.

Btw, what ads have you seen being run here about the NHS, and what is false about them? Personally, I haven't seen one here in Californina so I'm just curious now as to what these ads say and what is being distorted. Is it the statistics being shown or personal stories? 
 

 

The fact that people are being organized to go these town meetings and stir up people and shout down anyone trying to have a meaningful discussion about Healthcare reform with talk about communism and death panels is not leading anyone to a 'meaningful discussion' or trust.  It can't happen because people won't let it.  I just spent three weeks at home watching nothing but the news (thank you, parents) so believe me, I saw not only adverts presenting a scare strory version of the NHS but also politicians and news reporters presented unrealistic versions - plus was asked repeatedly by friends and family if it really was that bad.  Just an example is a news story about the NHS that showed a long line of people stretched around a city block and the commentary was about having to wait for treatment.  ()

People do not trust this administration....

You left out the word "some."  As in "Some people do not trust...."  Your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, you don't speak for everyone.

People do not trust this administration to construct a valid and thoughtful bill

I do.

Americans know that any government run system is run inefficiently

I don't.

Please don't try to speak for me.

Besides agreeing with the above two three posts, I'd also like to know what running ads about the NHS has to do with what's being proposed.  You are not answering me, JW66.  Saying it is about trust isn't an answer.  Saying it is about debate just isn't true.  It's creating a strawman, and as others have said, the resultant (or maybe resultant isn't the right term for it) displays of "protest" doesn't encourage meaningful debate.

If this fails, it's because it was about compromise and real discussion being drowned out rather than finding what needs to be done for real reform.

Even though the NHS has nothing to do with health care reform proposals (and it's not just about the ads but a concerted effort to propagandise this issue in many forms of media), since you've asked:

British woman tricked into appearing on an anti-NHS advert  She's not the only one.  Others have talked about being duped into participating.
In Defence of the NHS (talks about some of the lies in the ads and elsewhere during this "debate")

There are no death panels, Stephen Hawkings has received care under the NHS, old people get hip replacement, and if all else fails, you can go private.  Even with the public and private system, people in the UK still pay less per capita for their health care.  Plus, it's not being proposed as the US system. To bring it up then distort the realities of living under the NHS is nothing but scaremongering. There are other examples of systems closer to what is being proposed.  If you'd truly like meaningful discussion about healthcare reform, surely you'd support us discussing something more akin to what is being proposed, and surely you'd want it to be truthful and without distortion.

What chary said.

But it does make that fact completely irrelevant.

How so?  The question is whether some people have had to wait 2 years or more.  The answer is yes, regardless of what the average time may be and whether the average waiting time has been dropping recently. 

There have been people (even over age 65) who have received them immediately.

True.  Which means that there are people waiting a lot longer than the average time as well.  Averages taken without qualification can be quite misleading. 

Years ago.  Those articles are not even current.  One is from 2006, one is from 2004  It's not that way now.

So what?  The NHS has been in existence since 1948, so it means that under the NHS people were waiting those times just 3 to 5 years ago.  You talk as though this were ancient history.

You left out the word "some."  As in "Some people do not trust...."  Your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, you don't speak for everyone.

Carl, a LOT of people do not trust this administration, as the polls clearly show.

So what?  The NHS has been in existence since 1948, so it means that under the NHS people were waiting those times just 3 to 5 years ago.  You talk as though this were ancient history.

And you talk about it as the norm for NOW.  Which is isn't.  It's just anecdotal scaremongering hearsay and the only thing to you can find to back up your 2.5 year waiting time is five year old stories.