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Topic: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA  (Read 11294 times)

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Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« on: August 24, 2009, 10:50:19 AM »
 ???

I just signed for the return of my EEA2 application. They took issue with photocopies and insurance. They requested proof of comprehensive insurance coverage. I have access to NHS through my wife who is EU and living and working here legally as a PhD student. What would prove that? I did include both of our national insurance numbers in the application.

Also, does a certified copy with a embossed stamp with signature of our marriage license count as a photocopy? That seems a bit silly, but do let me know if you have an idea about this. It is a certified copy.

I will replace all other photocopied materials with originals, but any suggestions or answers to the above questions would be greatly appreciated.

I would like to avoid having my application returned a second time.


Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 11:15:33 AM »
NEVER send regular photocopies of documents...Certified copies cannot be submitted without a written explanation as to why you are UNABLE to supply the original document. The application form states this clearly. So as far as your application being returned to you for those reasons is valid and the responsibiity is yours.

However, a certified copy or a marriage certificate is considered to be as valid as the original document. In fact, the original is kept on file at the Registry Office and you're never going to get anything other than a certified copy. File that under 'do not worry about'.

As far as you being covered under the NHS that has nothing to do with National Insurance. Two separate things. NI is to do with taxes & pensions. NHS is healthcare. If you've registered with a GP you should have an NHS card (though some PCT's don't send them out anymore) or you can get a letter from your GP stating your coverage and NHS number as well.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 11:17:21 AM by WebyJ »


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 11:23:35 AM »
houstoncreed, your EEA family member, how are they exercising their Treaty Rights in the UK? Employed? Self-employed? Student? Self-sufficient?
John


Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 11:25:31 AM »
houstoncreed, your EEA family member, how are they exercising their Treaty Rights in the UK? Employed? Self-employed? Student? Self-sufficient?
I have access to NHS through my wife who is EU and living and working here legally as a PhD student.


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 11:27:07 AM »
houstoncreed, your EEA family member, how are they exercising their Treaty Rights in the UK? Employed? Self-employed? Student? Self-sufficient?

The OP stated:

... my wife who is EU and living and working here legally as a PhD student ...

Oops, x with WebyJ.  Great minds, and all that  ;)
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Pour cette vie et celle d'après
Tu seras mon unique projet.

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--Francis Cabrel


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 11:33:55 AM »
The Home Office doesn't believe the NHS can be used as "comprehensive sickness insurance"; they negatively define it as being insurance for those not entitled to use the NHS, and have recently (in July) changed their policy to include EEA students in the category of people who need to show evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance.

So, no matter what the NHS itself says (they think your wife, and you, are definitely covered so long as she's on a course of 6 months or longer), the Home Office will demand to see private medical insurance against 'all risks'.

This is a) ludicrous, and b) impossible, as there is actually no such private health insurance available in the UK--all private medical insurance basically still assumes a degree of NHS coverage, for the GP, long-term illnesses, pre-existing conditions, and emergency care.  But, from what I've gleaned of the process, your choices are fighting the HO on their interpretation of the law, or taking out a private medical insurance policy.

[PS, It's good to see that someone else is dealing with this; for a very long time I've felt like I'm the only European PhD student in all of the UK with a non-EEA spouse!]
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 11:37:21 AM by siviusx »


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 11:53:18 AM »
Okay, here we go.

1. It sounds like the certified copy of the marriage license is okay. I will return it with a cover letter explaining what it is as well as the balance of the parcel contents.

2. All photocopies will be taken out and originals sent (well, and see above).

3. I am still confused about the insurance mess. Do I have to get insurance? Would health insurance from the U.S. or Hungary work? This seems like a joke in the worst possible way.

Thanks for the quick replies.


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 12:04:34 PM »
Ah, sorry, I just realized where my previous post was unclear.  I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous the HO's policies are, because the kind or private insurance they claim to need to see doesn't exist in the UK.  However, anecdotal evidence from other people applying indicates that a good cover from a UK company will suffice for the HO's purposes, so there's no need to get significantly more expensive "expat" insurance from a foreign country.

Also, I don't know if they're doing this part correctly (as they seem to be deliberately missing the point re: NHS access in general), but it is not YOU that needs the insurance; it's your spouse.  [See Immigration Regulations EEA 2006.]  If you want to play it safe, you get it for both of you, but it's most important that she has it.

It is also worthwhile to perhaps enlist the Hungary SOLVIT to get clarification on this issue since, by law, your spouse is covered by the NHS, and can prove this through an NHS medical card, and nowhere in the Directive does it actually state that "comprehensive sickness insurance" has to be PRIVATE, and thus cannot be the NHS.  [This is an HO invention.]  This, however, only if you've got time to spare and aren't planning on leaving the UK soon--the 'quicker' solution is to comply with the HO's unclear demands.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 12:38:18 PM by siviusx »


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2009, 01:03:14 PM »
Whoops. sorry I did not spot the words that have now been pointed out. But as regards "living and working here legally as a PhD student", what does that actually mean?

Is she employed? She has a contract of employment? She gets payslips like an employee would?

Or is she not employed, does she "just" get a bursary?

In a nutshell, what is the nature of the payments, if any, that she gets from the place where she studies? Or does she get no such money, but is in an employment totally separated from her studies?
John


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2009, 01:17:08 PM »
[John, I see where you're taking this, but most PhD students (full-time) aren't allowed to work for more than 6 hours a week as a condition of their maintainance scholarships... so I don't think applying as a worker is an option as a general rule, as the courts interpret 'worker' as being at least 10-12 hours part-time per week. 

If she's a part-timer, continue...]


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 01:56:08 PM »
Hi, siviusx , you are no doubt right in thinking where I am trying to go with this. I am picking up on 3.1 in this UKBA document, instructions to their staff dealing with EU applications :-

Quote
A “worker” is someone who is in either full-time or part-time employment.

It does not mention any number of hours.

As regards "the courts interpret 'worker' as being at least 10-12 hours part-time per week", can you please give a reference to such a case? You are talking of cases dealing with the definition of "worker" under the terms of the EU Treaty?

John


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 02:07:51 PM »
**Just FYI**
My wife is employed part time at a university library. She is also a PhD student that submits September 30th and may or may not be given time to do a rewrite.

I just finished a two month summer project (full-time but only for 8 weeks). I have some interviews coming up.

Our rent is paid through December, which we can prove. I guess all this counts some.**

One last question about the marriage license. The county I am from in Texas keeps the original. They give a copy with a medallion like sticker. They also sell, and I did purchase, certified copies of this "original" copy with an embossed stamp and signature. The second certified copy is what I sent in. The "original" copy is in Budapest. I can get it mailed here, but is it necessary?

Thanks again and I hope this isn't too confusing.


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 02:31:36 PM »
Hi, siviusx , you are no doubt right in thinking where I am trying to go with this. I am picking up on 3.1 in this UKBA document, instructions to their staff dealing with EU applications :-

It does not mention any number of hours.

As regards "the courts interpret 'worker' as being at least 10-12 hours part-time per week", can you please give a reference to such a case? You are talking of cases dealing with the definition of "worker" under the terms of the EU Treaty?



Sorry, I took a shortcut; sadly the Court refuses to pin it down on one specific set of hours, but from the case law it's become clear that they're looking for something more than just a few hours a week.  Basically, it's the boundary between "genuine and effective work" (Levin) and "marginal and ancillary work" (Raulin).  It's accepted that 3 hours a day, 5 days a week is considered "genuine and effective" employment, but the same does not hold for "a few hours per week", which is why most students have a difficult time proving that they are legitimately 'workers' in a foreign member state on top of being students.

[The above cases are ECJ cases; the discussion more or less paraphrased from five separate EU law bibles sat upon my desk.]

Interestingly, see also the following: judgment CIS/3032/2007 by the Social Security Commissioner in the UK, dealing exactly with a 6 hour a week situation.  [I can't find a directly link that will work but it should show up on a search engine.]


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2009, 02:38:09 PM »
Quote
My wife is employed part time at a university library.

Sorry to press you on this, given you say she is employed, please confirm that she gets a payslip, like any other employee.

Also, how many hours per week does she work? (In case it might be relevant!)

Quote
One last question about the marriage license. The county I am from in Texas keeps the original. They give a copy with a medallion like sticker. They also sell, and I did purchase, certified copies of this "original" copy with an embossed stamp and signature.

It is effectively the same in the UK! That is, all you ever get in the UK is a certified copy of the entry in the register, and the register is always kept at the relevant Register Office. (Anyone doubting this, please pull out a UK certificate, birth, marriage, whatever, and you will see that printed on the form are words certifying that it is a copy of the entries in the register.)

Personally I would return to UKBA what they have sent back to you, pointing out the above, that the original is held in Texas, and that the enclosed certificate is akin to the sort of certificate issued in the UK. After all, no one in the UK is able to supply the original .... it stays in the Register Office and is never released.
John


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Re: Returned EEA2 Application From UKBA
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 02:40:41 PM »
siviusx, many thanks for those references. I shall follow them up later.
John


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