Ms vs. Miss vs. Mrs

I think madam historyenne is poking fun at me since earlier this year I commonly referred to the hubby in the visa boards a *lot* by his first name. Nasty habit it was, something I've tried to stop doing

Just a little poke though 

I think there is a cultural difference between the US and the UK. In the US, I always associated Miss with youth.  If I wanted to address a woman whose name I didn't know, - "Excuse me, M---, you forgot your change" - I would address a young woman as "Miss" and an older woman as "Ma'am." As an adult, I would feel that I was being condescended to if someone called my Miss.

There doesn't seem to be that attitude in the UK.

I've also noticed that people in the UK use the words "girl" and "boy" when referring to adult men and women much more than people in the UK.

In the US, I would always refer to a female person over 21 as a woman, not a girl (unless we were very close friends and were joking around privately).  And there are racial issues around calling a grown man "boy".  To me, as an American, calling grown people girls and boys is disrespectful.

DH thought it was funny when I told him that in the US, I would address a man whose name I didn't know  as "Sir".  He associates that with having a knighthood

On my UK marriage certificate, it says that my marital status before getting married was "spinster".  

On my UK marriage certificate, it says that my marital status before getting married was "spinster".  

Really?  LMAO! 

My 80 year-old great-aunt, who has never been married, has always preferred Ms. She says she doesn't like having her marital status called into question every time someone addresses a piece of mail to her. I always found that surprising, since women of her age tend to prefer the traditional forms of address. I'm in my twenties, never been married, and prefer Ms. I really don't know why, but I do.

My grandparents always addressed my birthday cards as Miss and my brother's as Master until we both turned 18. Then we both lost courtesy titles period.

I think there is a cultural difference between the US and the UK. In the US, I always associated Miss with youth.  If I wanted to address a woman whose name I didn't know, - "Excuse me, M---, you forgot your change" - I would address a young woman as "Miss" and an older woman as "Ma'am." As an adult, I would feel that I was being condescended to if someone called my Miss.

There doesn't seem to be that attitude in the UK.

I've also noticed that people in the UK use the words "girl" and "boy" when referring to adult men and women much more than people in the UK.
In the US, I would always refer to a female person over 21 as a woman, not a girl (unless we were very close friends and were joking around privately).  And there are racial issues around calling a grown man "boy".  To me, as an American, calling grown people girls and boys is disrespectful.

DH thought it was funny when I told him that in the US, I would address a man whose name I didn't know  as "Sir".  He associates that with having a knighthood

This is pretty much my experience as well.

On my UK marriage certificate, it says that my marital status before getting married was "spinster".  

I've heard of that before for UK marriage certificates (I guess mine says "divorced'), and I hate it!  It's a hideous and antiquated word, that should have died out 75 years ago.

My 80 year-old great-aunt, who has never been married, has always preferred Ms. She says she doesn't like having her marital status called into question every time someone addresses a piece of mail to her.

I like your great-aunt's style!

I'm in my twenties, never been married, and prefer Ms. I really don't know why, but I do.

I'm also in my twenties and have never been married, but I still go with Miss - it's just what I've always been called and I've never really thought about changing it. I think I might go with Ms. if I'm still unmarried in a few years' time or if I ever get divorced, but for now I'm okay with Miss. I don't mind being called either Ms. or Miss by other people, but I always tick/select the 'Miss' box on forms and things without giving it a second thought .

Here is another 2 cents worth from a former etiquette consultant.  In business all women are titled Ms. regardless of what they call themselves outside of the business arena.  However, I personally believe that grace needs to be given to women who've been known as Mrs. or Miss throughout their careers if they prefer to retain Mrs. or Miss as a title.

Ms. is not a made up title.  Both Ms. and Mrs. are abbreviations for Mistress which is a very old term with several meanings--see a good quality dictionary.  Today we seem to limit the meaning to a woman cohabiting with a man outside of marriage.
The use of Ms. was revived during the feminist movement in the late 1960's.

Your mother is correct to title unmarried women as Miss; divorced women as Mrs. her first name and husband's last name or whatever last name she chooses to use; widows are Mrs. late husband's first name and last name.

This is true in America and in Britian.  I suggest checking a well written etiquette book if it makes you more comfortable.

Speaking as a widow, I found it extremely painful to receive condolences from people who addressed me as Mrs. my first name and late husband's last name.  I was, in a sense, being stripped of an identify I had for almost 30 years. 

I hope this helps you and your mother.

woodlily, thank you for a lovely post.

People who wonder how someone can care so much about a title should reread the paragraph in woodlily's post that starts with "Speaking as a widow..."

They are not just titles. To lots of people, wether you agree or disagree, titles are tied very closely to their perception of themselves.

This thread aside, (which actually has been the most reasonable, pleasant thread of the type I've EVER seen,) that's why disussions on this topic do tend to get pretty heated.

To lots of people, wether you agree or disagree, titles are tied very closely to their perception of themselves.

Definitely!

And I've actually always sort of liked the word 'spinster.' Doesn't the word have something to do with spinning? Originally, I mean. I have a big love of old-fashioned words, and that's a particularly sweet one.

We were actually talking about this very issue in my Italian class tonight! Specifically, that the term 'signorina', meaning an unmarried woman, is used for young women - our teacher said "you wouldn't call an unmarried 60-year-old woman 'signorina' - that would be disrespectful!"  Which mirrors what some of us have said about being uncomfortable with applying the term 'miss' (the equivalent of 'signorina') to women rather than girls.  I thought the timing of the discussion, and the glimpse into a culture other than that of the US or the UK, was interesting given the replies on this thread!

And I've actually always sort of liked the word 'spinster.' Doesn't the word have something to do with spinning? Originally, I mean. I have a big love of old-fashioned words, and that's a particularly sweet one.

To me, it's one of those words like 'yankee' - there's a difference between using it to describe yourself and someone else using it to describe you, especially if the latter is done in a derogatory manner!

We were actually talking about this very issue in my Italian class tonight! Specifically, that the term 'signorina', meaning an unmarried woman, is used for young women - our teacher said "you wouldn't call an unmarried 60-year-old woman 'signorina' - that would be disrespectful!"  

It's the same with "mademoiselle."  It's not used for anyone older than 20 or so.  The first time I went to France I was barely 20 and everyone called me "mademoiselle" but when I went back three years later it was "madame."  That definitely correlates with how I feel about Miss.  It was at about 22-23 that I started using Ms, and I really did consider it a step towards being a full adult.   

Here's more on the use of Miss and Ms.  Miss is used for girls up to age 18.  After that age, it's appropriate to use Ms. in any situation, although, it's still correct to use Miss on formal invitations for women over age 18. 

I would again suggest grace for woman who prefer Miss to Ms.  For example, an elderly spinster may balk at the use of Ms. rather than Miss.

I do stand corrected on the Ms./Miss topic. 

I've always hated the convention of a woman becoming Mrs. husband's first name husband's last name when she married. It's like you're no longer a person, you're just an extension of your husband.

I've always hated the convention of a woman becoming Mrs. husband's first name husband's last name when she married. It's like you're no longer a person, you're just an extension of your husband.

It doesn't bother me at all. I'm more than a name, whatever that name is.

Really?  LMAO! 

Yes, really. I assumed it said that on the marriage certificate of all the women here who married in the UK, if that marriage was their first marriage.