Ms vs. Miss vs. Mrs

These days I don't mind Mrs. for the most part, but I do pick and choose when to use it.  I feel it is no-one's business what my marital state is (sometimes I don't mind disclosing it, other times, I do!).  If a man's marital state is not apparant by his title, why should a woman's be (unless she's OK with it)?

YES - this. Well said!

Thanks hollyberry and Countess von Meg!

Why do you say it like those two are opposite?

As a feminist, I'm kinda bugged by that. Feminism is about having choices, not making some particular ones.

I made my own choice in regards to my name. And I want others to have the same freedom. I am particularly feminist about that.

Mort, we are *so* on the same page about this.

Just because I choose Miss or Mrs ... how does that make me less independent?

I've had this discussion with other women before, and some are so adamant about keeping their maiden name rather than becoming Mrs [husbandslastname] ... but what they sometimes forget is that they probably only have that maiden name because their mother changed her name 30 years before.

A name is a name is a name. It doesn't make me who or what I am.

Mort, we are *so* on the same page about this.

Just because I choose Miss or Mrs ... how does that make me less independent?

I've had this discussion with other women before, and some are so adamant about keeping their maiden name rather than becoming Mrs [husbandslastname] ... but what they sometimes forget is that they probably only have that maiden name because their mother changed her name 30 years before.

A name is a name is a name. It doesn't make me who or what I am.

Completely agree.  One of the reasons I was so keen to change my name when I got married is because I hate my maiden name   But it was also about feeling united with my husband.  I know it's not necessary to have the same last name to be united, but it's important for me, and as Ms Mort said, feminism is about having choices.

I was raised to believe that I had to go to college and have a career, but when I was floundering in my early twenties, trying to decide what I wanted to do with my life, I realised that part of me would really like to be a housewife.  The idea that I actually could be a housewife, that I didn't have to be a self-sufficient career woman, was a revelation.  I didn't become a housewife in the end, but I'll never forget how liberated I felt when I realised it was a genuine option.  I don't feel that women who choose to be housewives are betraying feminism any more than women who choose to take their husbands' names.  It's their choice. 

A name is a name is a name. It doesn't make me who or what I am.

This is something I have been thinking about a LOT over the past few months.  Now that I am preparing to apply for citizenship, and now that I have had my "new" last name (my husband's name) for nearly three years....I find that I miss my old last name, not because I have any real love for the name itself (it's irritating how often it's misspelled, it's often mistaked for another name and the first four letters also happen to be the same as an acronym often employed by high school boys) but because it's the name I share(d) with my (immediate) family - and no matter how much I may have wanted to escape some aspects of our life together, there are other things about our lives that no-one other than the four of us - not even my husband, though he loves us dearly and we love him - will ever understand.  And so now I'm seriously considering picking it back up again, in addition to my 'new' name, because to me, a title is a title is a title - but a name, that means something.

That is to say, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, H - I'm just agreeing with you as you agree with Mort, that feminism is about having choices - even if those choices mean I'm likely going to be shelling out AGAIN for a new US passport. Oh, well.

I think the view in this debate that I consider both anti-feminist AND rude is "This is what I think you should call yourself, and therefore this is what I'm gonna call you."

If that happens to be a Mrs, or Ms, or Master, or Dr, it doesn't matter: the actual title is just semantics.

Live and let live, right? When possible.

They should not assume!   I feel it is no-one's business what my marital state is (sometimes I don't mind disclosing it, other times, I do!).  If a man's marital state is not apparant by his title, why should a woman's be (unless she's OK with it)?

Fully agree Andee.

I'd go one step further and say I think the Mrs. title should be dropped altogether.
If I was a woman, I would not use Mrs.

Men don't have a choice and no one can tell my martial state. It does seem out of place these days.

In fact, why don't we drop the titles altogether? Does it matter what your gender is.

Fully agree Andee.

I'd go one step further and say I think the Mrs. title should be dropped altogether.
If I was a woman, I would not use Mrs.

Men don't have a choice and no one can tell my martial state. It does seem out of place these days.

In fact, why don't we drop the titles altogether? Does it matter what your gender is.

Sometimes, though, the titles are being used as a sign of respect. It didn't matter to my students whether I was a Ms/Miss/Mrs (and, tbh, they mostly said "Miss! Miss!" in the beginning), but they were certainly not going to call me by my first name.  In that case, the title served its purpose.
I agree with those who have said that the feminist choice is not necessarily Ms., but in having the choice in the first place.  Why judge what others choose to be known as?

Men don't have a choice and no one can tell my martial state. It does seem out of place these days.

In fact, why don't we drop the titles altogether? Does it matter what your gender is.

Well, maybe the answer is that men should have a choice too, if they want it. And I agree with Jennie -- titles are signs of respect first, signifiers of relationship second, so getting rid of them entirely does seem excessive.

"This is what I think you should call yourself, and therefore this is what I'm gonna call you."

Yes - *this* is the concept that I dislike!

Sometimes, though, the titles are being used as a sign of respect.

Didn't consider that. Very good point.

I hereby withdraw my call for dropping titles altogether.

Regarding respect - I find that first names are used much more now than when I was younger.  Nowadays, I am commonly addressed by my first name by people I don't know. I can't imagine anyone, other than a very close friend or family member, calling my mother by her first name when she was my age. It was always Mrs. Lastname. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time someone called me Mrs. or Ms. Lastname.

Maybe part of the reason for this is that, by using first names, you avoid the whole Ms./Miss/Mrs. controversy.  It's easier for someone to address me by my first name than to try to guess my marital status and risk offending me. Perhaps in the "old days", it was considered unusual for an older woman to be unmarried, so equating age with marital status wasn't so risky.

Mort, we are *so* on the same page about this.

Just because I choose Miss or Mrs ... how does that make me less independent?

I've had this discussion with other women before, and some are so adamant about keeping their maiden name rather than becoming Mrs [husbandslastname] ... but what they sometimes forget is that they probably only have that maiden name because their mother changed her name 30 years before.

A name is a name is a name. It doesn't make me who or what I am.

We had a few months of having a baby before we were married and it was such a HASSLE having two different names -at the doctors, at the airport and at immigration that I was glad to change it.  Doesn't change who I am and the Mrs. bit doesn't bother me.  I don't see it as a sign of ownership AT ALL.  It just means you're married.  Which I am.
But I'm a person who hates, hates, hates explaining things so I guess I like how being Mrs. Husband's Last Name is just cut and dried.
Plus his last name is a very similar last name to mine, plus it doesn't get mangled as much.

...I find that I miss my old last name,

I miss my old name too!  When I was home this summer I saw some old friends that I haven't seen for twenty five + years and it was so bizarre to hear someone call me Mindy Lastname.  It made me want to be that person again.

Maybe part of the reason for this is that, by using first names, you avoid the whole Ms./Miss/Mrs. controversy.  It's easier for someone to address me by my first name than to try to guess my marital status and risk offending me. Perhaps in the "old days", it was considered unusual for an older woman to be unmarried, so equating age with marital status wasn't so risky.

Sounds logical to me.

I feel it is no-one's business what my marital state is (sometimes I don't mind disclosing it, other times, I do!).  If a man's marital state is not apparant by his title, why should a woman's be (unless she's OK with it)?

Not saying it's right or wrong, and maybe it's an age thing (I didn't get married until I was well into my 30's) but I think it's curious that people (not just you, Andee - this isn't a personally aimed observation) feel this way. It never even occurs to me that I'm "disclosing" anything by letting people know I'm married.... Like I said, not saying it's right or wrong - just interesting.